neuroscience and social feeling
Bud Weiss
bud.weiss at gmail.com
Tue Feb 16 02:20:15 CST 2010
Dear Adam and Regina and all:
One of the things I find over and over is that the indigenous life is so
much more sophisticated and actually goes far beyond the kind of repair we
tend to become involved with through various forms of therapy in which we
kind of step up and out of the picture as therapists or as directors,
facilitators, encounter leaders and enthusiasts wooed by what appears to be
more real than the semi sterile existence to which we have accommodated over
the years depressing our spirit more and more. We long for identity and
authenticity and simply cannot find it. So often in this quest, there is the
return to religion with a passion and often a killing righteousness which I
feel we are caught up in presently in the world serving the cause of the
most seriously misguided, rich and powerful.
There is a much larger context having to do with purpose, and for that, true
mentors, real elders are needed and we have far too few of those around.
Those with that wisdom are fading fast and unless their path is preserved
and protected for future generations, I fear that T.S. Elliot will be
correct as the whimpers begin to come from everywhere until they too fade to
nothingness and the world of our kind of beings may find its way to begin
again.
Relationships do not exist outside of that sense of purpose which of course
is dictated partially by the culture into which we choose to be born. Now I
have either transgressed the bounds of this discussion or opened it to some
other level if any are willing to proceed with me. In that sense, the
choice of where and with whom to be born comes first and is very much our
purpose's path as we discover it having forgotten at birth just to increase
the spontaneity and learning process.
I think Moreno was trying to get there in the brain fever of his youth in
Vienna with his *Words of the Father*. Due to many course corrections, he
faded into his genius Shanghaied by it in fact as he became more and more
effective as a fixer at the lower levels. Still he proposed the notion that
the goal needed to be the world, i.e. Who or for that matter What Shall
survive?
My father having killed himself when I was 4 years old set me on a certain
path which I would never have pursued had he not killed himself. Given the
relative inadequacies of our society in dealing with death and birth for
that matter let alone any concept of another place which generates the one
we operate in here and which is served by it, many years are easily passed
before the kind of righteous victimhood is completed if it ever is and real
integration of all experiences becomes possible. After decades of searching
and "working on myself" including psychodrama after psychodrama in groups
and alone, I recommend autodramas highly, I have actually thanked my
father's spirit for his path which has lead me to so many richnesses.
Indeed, it is easy to see my seeking and searching, part of which lead me to
Moreno and I think to a kind of closeness at least for a time with him as I
began my work on my theme of Creator Envy, all coming from my father having
killed himself. A little like the simple play on the indigenous spiritual
theme set forth in Star wars in which Obi Wan Kenobi allows himself to be
vanquished by Darth Vader saying to a confused and disheartened Luke
basically that "I will be more useful to you now than ever." In fact, my
leaving the fold with the Morenos when I did due to some personal issues
have also proved a blessing as I might have stayed within the fold and never
have encountered the paths I have in sojourning so to speak in other lands.
When it was time for me to return, I did so, albeit somewhat limitedly due
the particular policies set forth regarding present certification of TEPs
excluding grandfathering any more. Still, this too has served my particular
path.
Milton H. Erickson, M.D., one of those who became a mentor of mine for
several years, used to say to all his students something which seemed so
spiritual of him and indeed, it was: "When whatever *you consider
good*happens to you, know that in one way or another, you earned it.
And when
whatever you consider bad happens to you, you have only two things you can
do: You can remain a victim of it for the rest of your life, or you can seek
to achieve a kind of mastery over it so that it becomes a contribution to
your life and the lives of others rather than an ongoing detriment to all. "
He would purposely lift the words "You consider" since, so I believe, he
was clear that we gave the value judgment to these experiences.
At the end of his life, he continued to use his so called handicap as a
teacher and actually refused highly qualified healers efforts to fix him. So
too, those who I and so many others recognize as real spiritual guides with
great wisdom and not cult leaders speak in terms of our wounds being our
gifts and teachers.
Everything must be included, nothing discarded. I fear we have discarded or
had discarded way before we arrived, much of what has kept real wisdom and
beauty sustainable. Constellation work approaches this at times depending
on those who are the facilitators and their life experience. Hellinger
recognized it in his living and working with the Indigenous people of Africa
and wanted to bring it to "civilization." He hoped to create a path to
reabsorb that wisdom. In the long run, he sought out those whose traditions
were deeply rooted in them from birth like Dr. Malidoma Patrice Some. Others
like Francesca Mason Boring were lead to him and his followers and brought
the wisdom and Indigenous vision of her people to bare on the process.
Dr. Malidoma Patrice Some teaches such reverence and rituals to explore
these as well as in his books. See www.malidoma.com
Martin Prechtel in his teaching, weekends, and books has come as close as
anyone born in the so called Western world in expressing this for me and he
has lived and continues to live and teach as best he can, the indigenous
return to who we are when not seduced by our brilliant minds capability of
escape.
Here is a brief interview with him by Derrick Jensen in which his rich
ability to paint with words realizes the themes I mention far better.
http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/304/saving_the_indigenous_soul?page=2
Prechtel's CD, "Grief and Praise" is not to be missed.
Be well, and as Martin says often, a kind of opening and closing benediction
from his people the Tzutujil Mayan people of Santiago Atitlan, Guatemala:"
Long life, honey in the Heart, no evil, thirteen thank yous." Bud
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Adam Blatner <ablatner at verizon.net> wrote:
> Thinking about Buber's I and Thou, Moreno's encounter, a book I found by
> Paul Johnson, one of the few pastoral counselors who wrote in Moreno's
> journal and wrote his own book on the psychology of religion (around the
> 1960s) who included a small section on Moreno. I found it in an old used
> book store.
>
> Anyway, the theology of interpersonalism, as Johnson called it. So when
> Regina Sewell said on Jan 26, I read your question, about sitting w/ my
> non-violent communication group and as people shared their authentic selves,
> made eye contact (though this is clearly cultural because some cultures do
> not do this) allowed themselves to connect to others, others responded by
> saying things like "I feel more connected to you now."
>
> aB continues... and I realized that the encounter group or anything
> like it is a relatively new technology, a new worldview. Folks just didn't
> do this kind of thing with each other in Moreno's youth. I understood the
> radical nature of Buber (who was influenced by Moreno), to use the encounter
> as a window into how we can relate to God.
>
> In general, the game appeals to that part of our mind that is magical:
> If I do the right formulas, play the right games, then you (God) will
> respond with favor. Many prayers might be understood as having this
> sub-text.
> But beyond that, there's another possibility: What if you surprise
> me? What if you go beyond my expectations, my definitions? what if I sense a
> calling that goes beyond my cultural programming? Or a confrontation with
> something that may not fit how others have interpreted Your Will? What if,
> in other words, you were as out-of-control as a real other person? And what
> if---this stretches it--- what if you weren't in rebellion to me, fighting
> with me? What if I knew you were for me on the deepest level? What if we
> were the dearest of friends, and I had trusted you, and in a way, I had
> lived as if you had trusted me?
> But then, what if something unfolds and you surprise me? I have to
> give up my assumptions. You don't fit my formulations, my expectations, my
> categories. You're alive, spontaneous, a thou rather than an it?! Whoa, now
> I have to get past my own tendencies to have relied on the cultural conserve
> of my own habits. I used to be able to rely on my status, my gender, my role
> repertoire, my cliches, what I'd learned and internalized from those I
> feared and hated (unconsciously) as well as admired (sometimes both for the
> same person!) ? What if I have to open to my own spontaneity, and the
> vulnerability that goes with it.
>
> (I realized that my "Oh, what's the big deal" attitude was a result of
> my having marinated my young impressionable years in a psychologically
> intense California culture, with beatniks and phonies and authenticity and
> the writings of Humanistic Psychology advancing into experiences in
> Encounter Groups, so discovering Buber in the late 1950s was ho hum a bit.
> But now that I've lived in other places, and reflected on the general
> worldview of Western Europe (and Vienna was that) and the USA in the first
> half of the 20th century, I realize what a century-ahead-of-their-time this
> philosophical and theological attitude is! )
>
> I realized that just as the Hindus transcended the Victorian
> anti-sexual prejudice (that is still pretty prevalent) and contemplated the
> mysteries of sexuality as a part of life, a fundamental way God keeps things
> going, desire, culmination, ecstasy, and often beyond the will of those
> involved--- and that's as valid a window on the Holy Mysteries as any relic
> or ancient scripture or idol---
> I came to realize that another part of sex---in a way---isn't the
> physical theme, but the other aspect: What is a relationship, really? What
> can it be---that's even more to the point! Can we encounter?
> I am warming up to the idea that Moreno got really excited about
> this as a fairly new frontier: It was psychology, social psychology,
> creativity, integrated. Bergson didn't take it into the one-to-one or group
> dynamic. I don't know that anyone else had done this more vulnerable,
> not-just-intellectual kind of thing---other than Moreno.
>
> So I'm feeling into the psychology and theology of
> interpersonalism in some new ways. Do you know of others who have pondered
> these mysteries? Warmly, Adam
>
>
>
> I've also felt continued reservation about a member of the same group even
> after he made himself more vulnerable, spoke from his heart rather than his
> head, as soon as he went back to his head and to his "story." Perhaps it s
> the ability that psychodrama and other forms of self-development give us to
> "get past our stories" and get past other people's stories that enhances
> tele, especially when we are able to empathize with the other.
>
>
> peace,
> regina
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Adam Blatner wrote:
>
> Hi Pals,
> Although what I call the "hostess role" is more common and better
> known in women, this role and its components are not inherently or
> necessarily associated with women. *
> http://www.blatner.com/adam/pdntbk/sociomnot2.htm*<http://www.blatner.com/adam/pdntbk/sociomnot2.htm>
> Men can do it too, if they learn how important it is.
>
> As for how to answer the how are you question, my dear mother-in-law
> (just turned 94) taught me a line that she heard friends using there at the
> residence where she lives, and I've begun to use it: "Counting my
> blessings." So even if I'm not well or life has worries or stresses,
> here's an excercise that's close to prayer, but not religiously pushy. I
> call it "gratitudinism."
>
> My problem is that if people were to ask me how I am, I'd be tempted
> to say, "Thinkin' about exciting things, ideas, problems. Check out my
> blog." or other stuff... but that's sort of eccentric. I just had an
> acquaintance ask me, "Hi, Adam, still thinking about things?"
> I was tempted to say, "Duh. Doesn't everyone think about things a
> lot?" But then I realized the answer. It depends on what you mean by
> thinking.
>
> Anyway, my point is that beyond the greetings, a significant related
> point in sociometry is the idea that we can do a lot to develop the tele in
> our social network. There are also limits to what we can do. Sometimes we
> can't make ourselves fit more than partly with certain others or groups.
> But I think more people err on the side of holding back, unconsciously
> avoiding risk lest the response be lukewarm or indifferent, and that would
> feel a bit humiliating and hurt. It is just this edge that I want to gently
> encourage shifting in the direction of a little more interpersonal
> risk-taking. Can tele be enhanced?
> Warmly, Adam
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From: **thana ag* <anathga at hotmail.com> <anathga at hotmail.com>
> *To: **regina sewell* <reginasewell at optonline.net>; *adam blatner*<adam at blatner.com><adam at blatner.com>
> *Cc: **list at grouptalkweb.org* <list at grouptalkweb.org><list at grouptalkweb.org>
> *Sent: *Monday, January 25, 2010 1:53 PM <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> *Subject: *RE: neuroscience and social feeling <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>
> <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>
> Hi Adam,Regina, and All
> Interestingly the Kabballah states that love is found the connection
> between us,and in order to feel connected we need to to act in a way that
> we will fell connected. "love thy neighbor" would mean feel connected to
> them. That pleasurable experience that filsl one up is described as of
> feminine quality.
> In my experience it is the genuine concern of the waiter that gives
> me a whiff of that pleasurable feeling of connectness and I feel like
> responding in kindness and I tip joyfully and enjoy paying the dr's
> bill. But I do not necesserily experience it when I am the recipient of
> the the cultural conserve : so how are the children/spouse/dog when
> the party is clearly not particularly interested in my answer ,and I
> feel the words getting stuck in my throat but my politeness requires that
> I answer the Q .
> Genuine concern requires less time. It is after all an attitudenot
> necessarily a skill, worth cultivating, and it seems that it may be an
> attitude necessary for our survival in a future marked by evolved
> technology.
> So Adam ,Regina,and Rest: how are you? It is rainy and gloomy in New
> York,and I am happy for those of you who can enjoy some sunshine today.
> sunny hugs,
> anath
> anath garber
> > Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:08:00 -0500
> > From: reginasewell at optonline.net
> > Subject: RE: neuroscience and social feeling
> > To: adam at blatner.com
> > CC: list at grouptalkweb.org
> >
> > Adam,
> >
> > Alas, what you describe -- the strokes, the curtiousness, the thank
> you
> > note, the added question 'and how's your wife/partner/dog/child?' We
> > used to call that good manners. It seems in our time obsessed society,
>
> > we've let go of that piece of the old cultural conserve.
> >
> > I saw a news clip on bullying in schools that looked at social
> > hierarchies and who made it to the top. The people who make it to the
> > top tend -- if male be good at sports, mature early, and/or be funny.
> > Money of course is helpful. Girls, it's money and looks... And some
> > of this ties into social skills. The people who have better social
> > skills from the get go tend to acquire even more skills as adults
> > because they are around other socially skilled people. They socially
> > clueless tend to remain socially clueless because they hang out w/
> other
> > clueless people -- that's the theory anyway. At some level, this links
>
> > with Seigel's attachment theory. It starts so early. And yet, it can
> > be learned.
> >
> > And it has big impact. According to news reports, for example, the
> > doctors who get sued are not the least competent. They are the biggest
>
> > assholes. I know it works w/ tips and waiters. Charm and genuine
> > concern go much further than getting the order perfectly right and the
>
> > water perfectly on time.
> >
> > As I write this, I'm noting that we all have a fundamental need for
> > connection and yet our culture has, I think, taught us that doing
> those
> > things which foster connection are feminine, subservient and thus
> signs
> > of weakness.
> >
> > Peace,
> > regina
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Adam Blatner wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Regina,
> > > I appreciate your bringing up Siegel, because indeed the
> > > neurophysiologists and new research in cognitive and social
> psychology
> > > all are supporting the power of interpersonal psychic resonance.
> > > People pick up subtle cues and respond. Now, let's say we get it,
> > > fully. My style is to leap into the so-whatness of things, the
> > > implications, what Jung called an "intuitive type" ---not that I'm
> > > more intuitive---he meant what I said, oriented to the
> implications.
> > > So if we were to make a firm foundation of all this that it's
> > > true, then what would we be empowered or encouraged to do more of or
>
> > > less of?
> > >
> > > It seems to me that the growing literature on both neuro-physiology
> > > and social intelligence has at least (for starters) the following
> > > implication:
> > >
> > > It is not taught in college, and not even in medical school or
> > > psychiatric residency and I doubt that it's taught in most
> counseling
> > > programs. But I think that we need to emphasize and advocate for the
>
> > > importance of explicitly learning to be gracious, hospitable,
> > > courteous, warm, friendly, attentive, rather than distracted,
> > > self-absorbed, curt, rude, brisk, cool, etc.
> > > I suspect that faculty sort of take it for granted, but I
> > > wonder if they should.
> > >
> > > For example, what if most folks are about at a mid-range in skill
> > > in this way. They're reasonably nice and courteous, enough to get
> by,
> > > but few actually make a conscious effort to be gracious, to send
> thank
> > > you messages, to do more than what is clearly discourteous.
> > > On the other hand, many of these normal people think of themselves
> > > as benign, but actually create their lives so they feel too "busy"
> to
> > > attend to the little things that make people feel noticed and
> > > appreciated. This is the key starting point!!
> > > I suspect that most people don't let on that they desire more
> > > strokes; don't even admit to themselves that they need more strokes.
>
> > >
> > > Doctors, professionals, lots of stories about people who
> > > clients feel don't really listen, don't really care. Now I know that
>
> > > most docs care, but they haven't had much modeling in knowing how to
>
> > > show it.
> > >
> > > There are lots of folks who don't respond at all to repeated
> > > outreach via email, or only occasionaly.
> > >
> > > Another problem is that people who want to be known, appreciated,
> > > disclose so indirectly, so partially, that it's hard to appreciate
> > > them if if one tried. It's as if they unconsciously feel/think, "If
> > > you really loved me you could read my mind."
> > >
> > > So the good work being done on neurophysiology is important, it
> > > helps to lay the foundation. My interest shifts into methods for
> > > harvesting what they've been learning, turning into applications.
> > > I also wonder about the active unconscious resistances to
> > > social bonding, the self-reinforcing cycle that is based on
> > > defensiveness. Some people grow so cold that they defend themselves
> > > from knowing how hungry their heart is for someone to notice, to
> care,
> > > to want to know who you are, to be your friend. Their vague wistful
> > > fantasy may whisper, "Does that happen anymore? Or was that just in
> > > children's stories, so it seemed?"
> > >
> > > I do believe we're in a world of significant alienation, and part of
>
> > > that is that people who are lonely and not getting enough strokes--
> > > I'm big into Eric Berne's concept of strokes--- and I think most
> > > healthy people are getting now about 50% of the number of strokes
> that
> > > would be optimal. I think folks have forgotten to dream again that
> > > there could be communities where people felt relaxed enough, where
> > > there was sufficient group cohesion and morale, so that A might take
>
> > > the time to ask B, How're ya doin? and really want to know.
> > >
> > > I guess this also fits with another thought that when Moreno talked
> > > about groups, he was referring not to psychotherapy groups (or only
> > > peripherally), but more the general sense of we-ness, of community,
> of
> > > what can people do to promote community-feeling and build on
> community
> > > energy.
> > >
> > > More reflections on your comments later. warmly, adam
> >
> > Grouptalk mailing list
> > List at grouptalkweb.org
> > http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>
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--
"The perfect man breathes as if he is not breathing" - Lao-Tzu (circa 4th
century BC)
Breathing is the foundation of life, and good breathing is the foundation of
good health. Improve your health by improving your breathing with the BIBH
Buteyko Method.
Call or write me for details or appointments.
Barnett J. Weiss, MA, LCSW , (Bud)
E-mail: ButeykoNYC at gmail.com
Voice mail and Fax: (800) 530-9133
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Certified Nurtured Heart Advanced Trainer
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