EMDR, psychdrama, & Van der kolk

[Bud Weiss]

Dear Patricia: Of course, I take your points all together. I am here writing
a long piece which I suppose few will wander through though I am sure
several will benefit from doing so. My 70 years have largely been spent
seeking answers to how we function in various spheres of existence and I
have been fortunate to be exposed to some of the finest minds of our life
times who have generously mentored me as did Dr. Moreno.  I have been
particularly reactivated by both this discussion and my dealings with the
mental health system regarding my Son who is now once again
in Bellevue where, given the circumstances, I could not but choose to put
him. Bellevue is no worse and certainly not better than most of the
institutions around the US and probably elsewhere as well.

I was involved very deeply with EMDR back in the early 90s through to the
end of the 90s writing often on the list servewhich grew to
enormous proportions and Van Der Kolk actually was one of the monitors of
that list serve for a while. I actually contributed a fair amount about the
aspects of psychodrama which could enhance what EMDR was about and it seemed
to be quite appreciated by my colleagues there.   EMDR has since developed
quite a bit with various machines and approaches added and other approaches
growing out of it. The original studies were short term processes with the
worst trauma I can imagine and they were successful with feedback from
clients over 18 months.

There are several parts to the process to be sure. Many decided that they
would go more slowly and it was also important as I know you know to test
for multiple personalities prior to entering into the work and for several
other things as well which would indicate to clinicians real danger in
proceeding unless you were totally comfortable with that particular
population and even then some serious contrary indications for the use of
EMDR were clear. So it was not a straight forward, you walk into my office,
sit down and I wave my hands in front of your face situation at any time.

However, I am always deeply suspicious of clinical decisions to lengthen
treatment when a process has been so successful short term. The Palo Alto
group demonstrated over and over that there was little benefit to treatments
that lasted more than 7 sessions and they have contributed some of the
finest work and literature in the field; Francine Shapiro, the creator of
EMDR was actually a part of that group when she came upon her discovery.

I am always thinking that the extension of treatment length is for the most
part,about the clinician wanting to conserve their practice and take in more
money through increased sessions.  This has always been a problem in our
profession and clinicians justify this by saying that things are so much
more complex. At the worst it is the "Power Tactics of Jesus Christ," ( Jay
Haley's brilliant article) that is at work.  On rare occasions there can be
a need for long term work, however it is almost always as a consequence of
 poor training and poor supervision in the instance of any therapy that
leads to poor results and then the justifications about needing more time.

I have worked with the most difficult patients over the years and most of
the time, I took much longer in their treatment than my mentors because I
had not built my skills sufficiently. Then there are patients that because
of the lack of proper attention to their biological disturbance, general
toxicity of the organisim and vast amounts of oxidative stress with
Yeast/Candida, hormone imbalance, blood sugar disturbances, poor breathing
(overbreathing see my website
< www.buteyknyc.com >if you are not familiar with the importance of reducing
breathing to deal with hypocapnia which is endeminc outside of indigenous
communities) etc. all of these increase the treatment time or totally block
progress.

A few examples of those who succeded where it was not thought possible and
there are so many more are Insoo Kim Berg in Milwaukee who worked with
Street alcoholics obtaining rapid results in breif session in her version of
Solution Focussed Therapy developed by herself and her husband Steve de
Shazer. Amazing stuff and teachable with the proper supervision. They even
developed a computer model which you could use that got as good or better
results than most of them and because of INSURANCE ISSUES they were not
allowed to export that computer program to other clinics or teaching
institutions. That could have eased the pain of milllions even billions
across the world.  You asked clients what the computer told you to ask, and
then based on their answers which you fed into the computer, the next step
was given and so on up to the final interventions at each session.
Maria Palazolli, M.D. http://www.ralphmag.org/palazzoli.html based on a lot
of what has followed on Milton H. Erickson, M.D.'s giant footsteps developed
a paradoxical one stroke intervention for Anorexia which she also applied
successfully to a large extent with Schizophrenics. And of course there was
the most effective clinician in the history of psychological treatment,
 Milton H. Erickson, M.D. himself and his best students including the "stale
loaf of bread" as he called them, Bandler and Grinder my teachers along with
Erickson. "Stale loaf of bread" was the conundrum puzzle he insisted on
calling them. When they finally gave up having been unable to decifer it, he
told them, they were two dried out heals with a bunch of crumbs in between
them. They all laughed mightily when that was revealed.

I think what is badly needed is really good training and supervision in any
method and too often, due to the money involved, it simply doesn't happen. I
remember one of the early models for psychodrama teaching and certification
in Argentina by Dr. Jaime Rojas-Bermudez.  I again had the privilege of
meeting a number of his students who came to Beacon for training. They were
all psychiatrists who had to go through a 4 year training with
Rojas-Bermudez including some trips to Beacon before becoming certified by
him to run psychodramas. He only accepted psychiatrists in his training at
that time. Each of those I met were absolutely brilliant. Their entire first
year of training, they worked entirely as protagonists and
as auxiliary egos. Rojas-Bermudez had a psychoanalytic approach and this was
utilized in examining each psychodrama.

We are subject to the same consequences of our scarcity driven model in
health and educaton. Your money or your life. And in fact, it is your life
in any case.  I really do think that I know how to heal nearly all mental
diseases if I was given the kind of therapeutic community with physicians
who understand, proper diet, exercise, Spirituality see physicians like
Rachel Naomi Remen, M.D. http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC39/Remen.htm and the
work of psychiatrists in Puerto Rico or the Bronx and Brazil with
Spiritulistas and Brazilian Candomble,  hormonal balancing, attention to the
PH of the blood and the lacatic acid build up as a conseqeunce of many
things largely affected by endemic over breathing and so many other issues.
 I imagine there are many more hubristic persons like myself who believe
that they too can accomplish these ends. Emanuel Revici, M.D. who I had the
great gift of meeting and have one of the remaining autographed copies of
his book literally created a set of principles based on some of the laws of
physics and a fuller understanding of cell chemistry than had existed before
or since with the exception of the work of  Gilbert Ling,
Ph.D.<http://www.gilbertling.org/>--
Gilbert Ling's work has created a scientific basis for cell physiology. When
I began reading his work encouraged by another pioneer in alternative
medicine, Dr. Ray Peat www.raypeat.com  I found that as Peat had said,  Ling
had resolved many of the basic issues that appeared to confuse most of those
in the scientific establishment who were studying "membrane physiology."
Anyone who reads Ling's work will find that cells do not do the things
described in the standard medical literature. His indictment of scientific
fraud--on a scale "unknown in scientific history"--and of anti-scientific
stupidity, must eventually be accepted by anyone who would understand the
present scientific-political establishment. Revici's work along with that of
Ling if followed properly could probably heal most serious physical
illnesses alone.

Watching my son tortured by Bipolar disorder because the educational and
mental health systems in this country and most of the world are so totally
run by pharmaceuticals and psychiatrists and administrators who long ago
compromised their souls is more disturbing than I can say. I tell you that
at times, I think along the lines of the monster in the new movie *Law
Abiding Citizen* since the system as it exists is all I have to deal with.
Even if I  had unlimited financial resources and could build my own
institution to utilize all that I know, while I could heal many including my
son,  that institution would be ignored or invalidated as it would threaten
the mainstream similar to all movement toward humane evolution in any field.
 And still we must endure to prevail.

I remember a time when there were humane places like The hospital with which
Carl Hollander was affiliated in Denver.  While there was a lot more that
could be done in addition to what was available, it was an exciting place to
be.  Murray Bowen's work in the Hospital in Washington where he hospitalized
whole families and lead multiple family therapy sessions; the enormously
important work of Community Building pioneered by M. Scott Peck which was
able at times to not only prevent the necessity for hospitalization of
severely mentallly disturbed persons, it worked to build the emotional and
other resources of the group gathered around that person. Bob Roberts
carried that work into the worst prisons in the US and saved so many lives
in the process see www.projectreturn.com
orwww.Mysoulsaidtome.com<http://www.mysoulsaidtome.com/> Then
there were places like Chestnut lodge across the country and in other
countries as well.  Ferdinand Knobloch's Therapeutic Community
in Czechoslovakia where he employed nearly entirely persons who were not in
the field, and were instead down to earth people with wide life experiences
including raising their own families; Rosen's Direct Analysis work with
psychotic individuals, Howard Podvoll,M.D. whose book, *Recovering Sanity*  I
have mentioned before as a necessary reading in this field of real humaine
ideals in working with those whose minds and bodies have rebelled against
the worst aspects of our stymied capitalist driven world. Following up on
the magnificent work of  Howard Searles,M.D.
http://www.human-nature.com/rmyoung/papers/pap129h.html and Frieda
Fromm-Reichman http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/friedafromm.html ( Read again
* I Never Promised You a Rose Garden*, and the pioneers unsung and mostly
unheard of like *John Perceva*l who through enormous courage and stamina
fought through the worst of  his own madness at a time when patients were
chained to walls in dungeons to create the first real mental patients Rights
society called "Alleged Lunatics Friends Society." This lead to most of the
subsequent protections for mental patients in England and elsewhere based on
Perceval's efforts and those who joined with him. There are others well
covered in Podvolls book several who wrote their own books as did Perceval
about their experiences which are so highly instructive.  These are real
heros who we should honor in studying to unlock with their keys the depths
of learning that "madness," opens to us. Indigenous societies do not extrude
the madman, they seek to understand and integrate them into the overall
message of spirit to lead their villages to a more connected sense of well
being and course forward.  There were also amazing communities and villages
which devoted themselves to providing homes for the insane which have a long
history going back to Emperor in the 3rd Century BC in India or the township
of Geel  Belgium where at one time over 4,000 mad people lived in the
villagers homes and many of these mad persons had escaped from Asylums where
they were treated like mad dogs. This still exists to some extent there to
this day; Geel being the first organized "alternative" of homelike foster
care in the world and continues to this day.

With the tools of uncorrupted science, we can become more powerful healers
who can also listen to and learn from the lessons of the so called insane.
 We are able to help children on the very serious side of the autism
spectrum to recover using variations of the DAN protocols see
www.autism.com  There
is simply no committement to excellence in the mental health or medical
field by and large as funding continues to come through the totally corrupt
pharmaceutical companies. It is so bad that one of the most noted editors of
the New England Journal of Medicine recently resigned in protest to the lies
spread in the journals and in the false advertisements for the medications
while knowing physicians simply turned their heads while offering their open
hands for the money tinged with the blood and pain of millions.
The same is basically true in our educational systems by and large as John
Taylor Gatto, one of the most astounding teachers in the history of public
or private schools and one of the most thorough historians of schooling has
written regarding the real purpose of public education which is to dumb us
all down to cooperation with those in power with a few exceptions like the
Sudbury Valley School. http://www.sudval.org/ where brilliance still
prevails and students really learn democracy at it's best first hand. We
could create millions of wonderfully fulfilling jobs in health and education
which nearly occurred during Johnson's presidency with the Great Society
programs. If only there were a substantial committment to a humaine society.
Instead, we bargain with life and accept a walking death for most of the
worlds population. The examples that put the lie to the notions of scarcity
are many.
Perhaps this community of action therapists can learn to join with others
who are pointing the way with sociodramas and action protests at
psychological events including our own including street actions etc so that
the shift may come before the whimpering gets too much louder and those in
control drown along with the rest of us as the waters rise over all. In
fact, the experiences of some highly respected pioneers in the realms of the
so called psychic visionaries as well as the ancient warnings of many
indigenous cultures tell us of just such a future if we fail to shift our
ways.

Be well, Bud

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 4:18 PM, PATRICIA DESERT <honeybwomn at msn.com> wrote:

>  Dear Bud--You make the documented pointed that EMDR has been incredibly
> successful in helping trauma survivors heal, and yes sometimes within 5
> sessions.  In my EMDR work with trauma survivors I certainly can attest to
> this.  However, EMDR is an 8 stage process and not just the eye movements
> processing that so many think is the only "miracle" causing change.  Eye
> movements processing is the desensitization stage and it is an incredibly
> rich, robustly busy, and deeply reorganizing internal process that manifests
> in physical movement and somatic/emotional changes engaging the left and
> right brain through many and sometimes all the senses.   Thrusting someone
> into that without preparation has the same consequences as thrusting someone
> into a psychodrama without preparation.  Which is exactly why EMDR therapy
> is an 8-stage method emphasizing, as does clinically sound psychodrama,
>  safety, a resourced Self, and a reliable sense of groundedness.   And when
> chronic PTSD is part of the clients experience along with chronically failed
> attachment wounds, EMDR work as well as psychodramatic work can be spent
> focusing on developing safety and groundedness for months and months, even
> years.
>
> None of our methods are miracle workers nor are we.  So many factors
> influence whether or not we will be able to help our clients and Van der
> Kolk understands this.  I have met him at EMDR conferences, heard him speak,
> read his work.  He knows that all methods have skilled practitioners and
> unskilled practitioners.  He makes allowances for that.  But he he also
> likes documented, quantifiable, long-term studies with control groups that
> show the efficacy of a method, and when they do not readily exist and he
> sees people abreacting and regressing without safety, groundedness, meaning
> making, etc.--then given his perspective why wouldn't he have the reaction
> he had.  I would and have had similar reactions at conferences.
>
> Rather than expend so much energy on Van der Kolk and attempting to change
> his mind I would much rather see our energies incorporate in training
> curricula requirements for demonstrating the understanding and skill of
> fostering connection, safety and containment before any potentially
> traumatic dramas are directed.  I think overall we do a great job in
> fostering connection within groups--sufficient safety and containment seem
> to be the neglected step-children.  That's what I would like to see change.
>
> Just some thoughts...Patti
>
> Patti Desert, LCSW-C, CEMDR, CP Singular Pathways 208 East Melrose Avenue
> Baltimore, MD 21212 Phone: 410.435.3755 Fax: 410.435.0547
> www.singular-pathways.com "from fears and tears to confidence and joy"
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:32:44 -0500
> Subject: Re: abreaction
> From: bud.weiss at gmail.com
> To: adam at blatner.com
> CC: list at grouptalkweb.org
>
> While I agree with Adam that "that there are no procedures or processes
> that are good for every client," there is something in the work of Milton H.
> Erickson, MD and that which Francine Shapiro developed that has been so
> successful across the board with very serious trauma and PTSD. By now
> thousands upon thousands of cases reported with EMDR alone. The initial
> studies with less than 5 sessions accomplished superior results over
> anything seen previously. This is one of the reasons so many came to study
> the method and that Joseph Volpe, M.D. the father of trauma deconditioning
> signed on so vociferously to the work saying basically that it was the best
> thing since sliced bread. It is also why many of the leaders in the
> treatment in the VA of returning veterans have said that "*Not* offering
> our traumatized veterans EMDR is criminal."  The pattern interupts and
> constant reintegration of the truamatic events in the process are easily
> tracked in videos and audio recordings of the work with the most serious
> clients. Psychodrama can do the same thing and I think even more effectively
> because of the spatial partializing or dissociation that takes place so much
> easier in psychodrama with the reintegration or re-association done as the
> healing process proceeds.
> AND ONLY IN THE HANDS OF A SKILLED WELL TRAINED CLINICIAN.  Thanks all, Bud
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Adam Blatner <ablatner at verizon.net>wrote:
>
>  Abreaction is simply the re-connection of conscious awareness with
> feelings and ideas that had been repressed. In the vast majority of cases,
> in ordinary psychotherapy, this happens on occasion. I make the point in
> Foundations of Psychodrama that emotions (sometimes laughter) is not the
> goal, but rather a side-effect, a frequent accompaniment to the process.
> Sometimes it's as gentle as an aha. Sometimes the tears that flow represent
> the welcoming home that which has been split off and missed.
>       The next step of course has been mentioned, that the challenge then
> is how do I integrate that which I have found in the past to be absolutely
> unacceptable. Sometimes I'm ready and there's almost no problem. Sometimes I
> have to do a good deal of shadow work, as it has come to be called, to
> re-vision myself to recognize that I'm more  (whatever) than I thought, but
> it's okay.
>     I note some further types of integration in my book..
>
> Trauma is a different thing---sort of the difference between a broken bone
> and one that is not only broken, but the fracture breaks through the skin
> and has become vulnerable to infection (i.e., a "compound" fracture).  It's
> far more than mere repression. Many other primitive coping mechanisms have
> been energized.
>
>      The whole dynamic of trauma has become more appreciated only since the
> late 1970s or early 1980s, and many psychological theories developed before
> that time didn't really take this into consideration.
>
>        The point is that there are no procedures or processes that are good
> for every client. That which may help A may be contraindicated for B.
>
>    Warmly, Adam
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Eric Rutberg <ericrutberg at yahoo.com>
> *To:* grouptalk Listserv <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:31 AM
> *Subject:* [SPAM] abreaction
>
>  Team,
>
> Are we referring to re-traumatizing and abreaction interchangeably? My
> sense of abreaction is that it is a* *type of catharsis, a reliving of an
> experience in order to purge it of its emotional hold (often unconscious
> hold) over client behaviors and attitudes and feelings etc.
>
> While abreaction could retraumatize a client, I suppose, it is certainly
> not necessarily so - right??
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Dr Kate Hudgins <drkatetsi at mac.com>
> *To:* grouptalk Listserv <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> *Sent:* Mon, November 9, 2009 2:01:20 PM
> *Subject:* Fwd: New View of TSM and 2010 training group
>
> While this concern has come forward, I will again send out my training
> schedule on the Therapeutic Spiral Model for next year.  these are NOT
> advanced courses for psychodrama.  They are basic courses that teach you how
> to use doubling, role reversal and beginning directing skills safely so that
> the concerns that Adam brings up in his last email are NOT repeated in a new
> generation of students.  The first course alone gives you a way to assess
> your client for individual, group, couples or family therapy, whether a
> trauma survivor or not, what are the strengths and weaknesses.  It also
> allows you to DEFINE what roles are needed to achieve a state of spontaneity
> as a researcher and clinician.  It is an invaluable skill for anyone who
> will ever direct a psychodrama.
>
> now to blow my own horn for my sake, but for the sake of the many many many
> protagonist who will be in your hands.  I can get very excited about
> this.....the sense of responsibility we have as directors, healers.  It
> comes from the mistakes I saw made and the ones I made as a young director.
>  I come now to a time of humbly generativity in passing on what I have
> created.  Join me in Charlottesville to learn simple safety that will stay
> with you forever.
>
> I work out payment plans so dont let money stop you.  Kate
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>  *From: *Dr Kate Hudgins <drkatetsi at mac.com>
> *Date: *November 5, 2009 2:50:56 PM EST
> *To: *grouptalk Listserv <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> *Subject: **New View of TSM and 2010 training group*
>
>
>
> A NEW LOOK FOR TSM!!!
>
> Many people seem to be under the misperception that TSM is only for
> advanced students.  This is simply not true.  In fact, given that TSM
> stresses safety, safety, safety, it is actually one of the best models for
> students new to psychodrama!  Not only do you learn the basic techniques of
> psychodrama--doubling, role reversal, and how to direct.....but you learn
> how to do it safely.  See our new Level One training group for 2010.  You
> can take one course, or you can join the whole series for the year and be
> with a group of like minded people studying the state of the art work on
> psychodrama and trauma together for a year.  Welcome Dr Kate.  Go to
> www.therapeuticspiral.org for more information.
>
> Our First New Level One Series in the Therapeutic Spiral Model Trauma
> Training to Heal Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder
> Starts in 2010     January---July-- December
>
> January 15-17, 2010
>
> Role Theory:  The Trauma Survivor's Intrapsychic Role Atom
>
> This weekend course teaches you 3 ways to assess the personality structure
> of a trauma survivor with PTSD using role theory and using people friendly
> terms that takes therapy out of the often pathological view of DID, bipolar
> and other psychiatric disorders that trauma survivors are labeled with as
> they struggle with symptoms like body memories, flashbacks and anxiety
> attacks.  You will learn a pen and paper tool, an action role atom, and an
> art therapy collage--all creative ways for you and your client to look at
> the impact of trauma on their brains and their personality.  This overview
> of the Therapeutic Spiral Model is then put into psychodramatic action as
> you experience the roles of protagonist, trained auxiliary ego and assistant
> leader.  You do not need previous psychodramatic experience to begin your
> training in TSM as it teaches you the safest way to begin to learn
> psychodrama to keep your protagonist safe at all times, while involving the
> entire group to make it a truly therapeutic method for all members.
>
> Cost:  $425.   10%ASGPP discount  25 hours of training.    Housing
> available at local friends for $25/night or at the English Inn for single or
> shared room of 99/night.
>
> July 11-16  Summer Residential
>
> The Prescriptive Roles of Containment
>
> This 5 day summer residential workshop teaches students the all important
> Prescriptive Roles of Scene 1 in all TSM psychodramas.  To prevent
> retraumatization in all psychodrama working with trauma, the director learns
> to empower the protagonist and the group with the Observing ego, the roles
> of restorative strengths, the Containing and Body Doubles and the Manager of
> Defenses.  When all of these roles are enacted on the stage, what you find
> is that you have have, in fact, DEFINED the state of spontaneity and the
> protagonist is able to stay in the here and now.  For many decades
> psychodramatists have said, how can you tell if someone is spontaneous? Well
> this course teaches the Prescriptive roles so that you can make sure that
> each and every protagonist you direct is always in a state of spontaneity
> that can lead to new creative action.  Team practice in the TSM roles of
> director, Assistant leader and Trained Auxiliary ego, as well as
> opportunities to be a protagonist in safe psychodramas.
>
> Cost:  $1200   10% ASGPP discount.   Shared living in rented homes in the
> mountains of Virginia with a cook and massage available.    60 hours of
> training
>
> December 3-5  The Trauma Triangle
>
> This weekend workshop introduces students to the TSM Triangles of the
> Victim-Perpetrator-Abandoning Authority.  During any traumatic experience of
> overwhelming stress or violence, the personality structure internalizes
> these three roles.  Most people easily understand the experience of victim
> and perpetrator, but the most important role is that of being abandoned.
>  Abandoned to the violence of emotional, psychological, physical, sexual or
> spiritual abuse by mothers, fathers, teachers, ministers, priests, and
> others teaching the child that she or he is not worth love, care, support.
>  In turn, we learn to abandon ourselves to future violence, to eating
> disorders, to alcohol, to drugs, to more benign neglect of lack of self
> care.  This workshop teaches how to identify your own trauma patterns by
> "walking the trauma triangle" and then how to break the triangle by using
> the Prescriptive role and find true self care.
>
> Cost:  $425   10% ASGPP discount   25 hours of training          Student
> housing in friends homes for $25/night or housing in the English Inn for
> single of shared room of $99.
>
> Total course cost:  $2050.  10% ASGPP discount $1845      If full course
> paid for by January 1st, 2010.  $1750.    Pay pal accepted.
>
> Led by Dr Kate Hudgins, Ph.D. TEP, Clinical Psychologist, Founder of the
> Therapeutic Spiral Model, International Expert on Post-traumatic Stress
> Disorder. Received Innovator's Award in 2001 and the Scholar's Award in 2009
> from the ASGPP.  She will be assisted by fellow TSM Trainers Mimi Cox, LCSW,
> PAT, Colleen Baratka, MA, RDT, TEP, Catherine Wilson, RN, M.Ed, CP and
> Jeanne Burger, Ed.D., TEP, all original members of the TSM training group
> from 1992-1995.
>
> Workshops held in Charlottesville, Virginia.
>
>
>
>  Kate Hudgins, Ph.D., TEP
>
> Clinical Psychologist
> Director of Training
> Therapeutic Spiral International, LLC
> ww.therapeuticspiral.org
> drkatetsi at mac.com
>
>
>
>
>  Kate Hudgins, Ph.D., TEP
>
> Clinical Psychologist
> Director of Training
> Therapeutic Spiral International, LLC
> ww.therapeuticspiral.org
> drkatetsi at mac.com
>
>
>
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at grouptalkweb.org
> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>
>
>  Kate Hudgins, Ph.D., TEP
>
> Clinical Psychologist
> Director of Training
> Therapeutic Spiral International, LLC
> ww.therapeuticspiral.org
> drkatetsi at mac.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Grouptalk mailing list
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>
>
> Grouptalk mailing list
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>
>
>
>
> --
> "The perfect man breathes as if he is not breathing" - Lao-Tzu (circa 4th
> century BC)
> Breathing is the foundation of life, and good breathing is the foundation
> of good health. Improve your health by improving your breathing with the
> BIBH Buteyko Method.
> Call or write me for details or appointments.
> Barnett J. Weiss, MA, LCSW ,
> 7410 Ridge Blvd 2D;Brooklyn, NY 11209
> E-mail: ButeykoNYC at gmail.com
> Voice mail (951) 262-3004
> Web site : www.ButeykoNYC.com <http://www.buteykonyc.com/>
>



-- 
"The perfect man breathes as if he is not breathing" - Lao-Tzu (circa 4th
century BC)
Breathing is the foundation of life, and good breathing is the foundation of
good health. Improve your health by improving your breathing with the BIBH
Buteyko Method.
Call or write me for details or appointments.
Barnett J. Weiss, MA, LCSW ,
7410 Ridge Blvd 2D;Brooklyn, NY 11209
E-mail: ButeykoNYC at gmail.com
Voice mail (951) 262-3004
Web site : www.ButeykoNYC.com
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