religion and spirituality

[thana ag]

Watching the video i had the same allergic reaction to Andrew Cohen.less so to Ken Wilbur, as Adam,The whole idea of spirituality - is  that it be  experiential.Had the two  led this very "warmed up "woman through a Socratic  dialoque in which she would've come to   experience the "closed loop that the ego is"  -then BRAVO! . The audience would 've learned too.  We  too would've been  a bit more "enlightened". Otherwise this was not diferrent from  a sermon in a church.,with the two self designated High Priests    (one even got the right name for it...cohen...). talking at the woman . At least Ken Wilber intervened  at some point to say "let her talk to us..".  But did she actually experienced being listened to? The minimum a human being needs to feel the lowest degree of love? I don't think so.
Warmly,
anath


From: ablatner at verizon.net
To: sewell.2 at osu.edu; list at grouptalkweb.org
Subject: Re: religion and spirituality
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 17:08:30 -0600










Responding to your comments of January 
7    
Campbell also notes that perhaps the problem with religions today is that 
they myths have not caught up with the economic and social realities of the 
world in which we live.  
       1. I am 
all for a re-thinking about new myths, and wrote about this on my website : http://www.blatner.com/adam/psyntbk/creatmythmk.htm
 
   2. RS  Perhaps what we 
need are new myths.  Oddly enough, some of the new science and new religion 
is backing up what the Mary Baker Eddy prosletyzed to her masses -- the power of 
prayer, of "energy" and intention.
      AB: You may be right, and I sort of wish you 
were, but I am not sure that much good science has indeed backed up the power of 
prayer. There's lots of not-so-good science going around, too. 

    3. youtube video   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTb2kp9Y4Is   Shows Andrew 
Cohen and Ken Wilber, two new-age "teachers" responding to an emotional woman 
who is speaking about her inner conflicts.
    Regina wrote: I forced myself to watch it.  and I 
had to force myself to watch it. I know that place of what Cynthia dubbed 
spiritual hunger.  I know that place of resistance.  But we've 
reframed resistance in our psychodrama world, no?  Haven't we decided 
perhaps that resistance is just lack of warm up.  and might there be valid 
reasons for lack of warm up?  Like we, or someone else, is pushing us into 
a role that we don't want or that we don't have adequate skills or tools to 
occupy, or we think we don't have adequate skills or tools, but we try to do it 
anyway because we think we "should" and then - to steal for Ellis - we end up 
"shoulding all over ourselves."  
         
AB: I agree and would add a few other comments: 
     a. Is it possible to 
eliminate sub-personalities, parts of self that are regressive? I remember Ram 
Das saying that after 20 years of meditation and spiritual effort (following his 
psychedelic experiments), he hadn't "cured" a single neurotic complex. But, he 
conceded, they were "smaller."
          I might have 
answered that a person can have parts of oneself that are little-kid I don't 
want to feelings and that doesn't disqualify the more grown-up parts. I think it 
was Desmond Tutu or someone famous noting that courage doesn't mean you're not 
afraid; rather, it means that you are afraid and you go ahead 
anyway.
 
     b. But what bothered me is 
the answer-giving behavior. I will confess that these guys---more Andrew Cohen, 
but a bit of Ken Wilber, too---though I like many aspects of his philosophical 
work, but not all--- annoy me. Perhaps this helped explain it. (And I admit 
there may be shadow elements here.) I might have refrain from being so ready 
with answers, but engaged instead in something that was more psychodramatic, or 
at least an inquiry. This doesn't fit so neatly into a large class context, but 
this level of learning perhaps should not be subject to that 
format.
       For example, I 
can't speak for this person in the video, but I have found that symptoms of 
self-hate often relate to a variety of other issues not brought out into the 
open, and possibly not even consciously related to the things at 
hand.
      This woman was 
locating the distress in the dissonance between her dedication to doing good in 
social action and the parts of her that don't want to do good for others, or 
even be very grown-up. Perhaps, but unless we deal with a general life review, 
we can't know if this is really what the issue is. It may be unfinished issues 
with a lover, guilt and shame over gullibility and sexuality (quite common), 
lack of clarity in identity and vocational commitment (also very common), lack 
of general map of faith, and so on---many possibilities. 
       So I felt 
annoyed at what seemed to me to be grossly unsophisticated psychological 
pseudo-therapy, with glib answers.
 
     c. The other problem with 
Cohen, and to some degree Wilber, too, in these videos, is the new age babble. 
It used to be called psychobabble, but now it's spiritual-babble. Those are 
statements that are essentially platitudes, cleverly disguised. Many recognized 
teachers and televangelists and others are quite glib, perhaps quite sincere, it 
all fits in their mind, an answer to every questions.
 
 (Am I this way and projecting my annoyance on 
Cohen? Maybe, but I'll be open to exploration of words, point by point. I don't 
think he makes himself vulnerable in this way.)
 
     Cohen and many other new 
age gurus make sweeping statements that cannot be disproven. They're too vague. 
As you think, so your life will be. Not really so obvious, because we all think 
so many internally contradictory things. Make your mind pure?  Who has done 
this, and where is the evidence that except for building a new-age following, 
those who are designated by followers and by self as enlightened actually lead 
more exemplary lives? 
 
       
RS: So the political consequences of spirituality - or lack there of 
- I think are dependent on the tenets or myths or misunderstandings that 
one subscribes to.  Not just the leaders - though they certainly have 
incredible power to shape social rhetoric - but the peeps as well...  I 
personally lost at least $10,000 in a break-up because a majority of people in 
Ohio felt moved by their spiritual convictions to deny the rights of 
marriage to unmarried people and denied marriage to same sex 
couples.  
       AB: This brings up the whole problem of 
spirituality and religion, and the possibility that many people who pursue a 
variety of current religious agendas (such as anti-homosexual political 
policies) are bothering much with any personal spiritual endeavors. 

 
 
     So, back to trying to 
clean up email. Warmly, Adam

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Chat. Store. Share. Do more with mail. 
http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grouptalkweb.org/pipermail/list_grouptalkweb.org/attachments/20090110/6ffc3c20/attachment.html>