religion and spirituality

[edwschreiber at earthlink.net]

Cohen and Wilbur are, in my sense of things, speaking about an experience, or a set of experiences.  The babble is there for sure, but the experiences they are speaking are historic, and they are rooted in human history.  In my own training, which is Zen, these experiences of transcendence are written about extensively in found directly with Zen training. This is also the case with many Hindu and Tantric practices.  These experiences as Kate has noted, are very much rooted in the Native cultures.  Beyond the babble, there are real-lived experiences that they are pointing to.  I know Zerka has written that we are cosmic being; this is not to be dismissed in my experience, nor taken lightly, but explored through training in these practices, which lead to an internal experience of beyond self, to something larger, and something inward.  Ed



-----Original Message-----
>From: Dario Silva <dasilva at nmsu.edu>
>Sent: Jan 9, 2009 7:24 PM
>To: 'Adam Blatner' <adam at blatner.com>, 'REGINA SEWELL' <sewell.2 at osu.edu>, list at grouptalkweb.org
>Subject: RE: religion and spirituality
>
>Adam Blatner wrote: “But what bothered me is the answer-giving behavior

>The other problem with Cohen, and to some degree Wilber, too, in these
>videos, is the new age babble. It used to be called psychobabble, but now
>it's spiritual-babble. Those are statements that are essentially platitudes,
>cleverly disguised. Many recognized teachers and televangelists and others
>are quite glib, perhaps quite sincere, it all fits in their mind, an answer
>to every questions.”
>
> 
>
>Thanks Adam for having the courage to say this. 
>
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>
>paz,
>
>Dario  
>
> 
>
>Darío Silva, Ph.D.      NMSU EAP      575-646-6603
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> 
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>
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>From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org [mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org]
>On Behalf Of Adam Blatner
>Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:09 PM
>To: REGINA SEWELL; list at grouptalkweb.org
>Subject: Re: religion and spirituality
>
> 
>
>Responding to your comments of January 7    Campbell also notes that perhaps
>the problem with religions today is that they myths have not caught up with
>the economic and social realities of the world in which we live.  
>
>       1. I am all for a re-thinking about new myths, and wrote about this
>on my website : http://www.blatner.com/adam/psyntbk/creatmythmk.htm
>
> 
>
>   2. RS  Perhaps what we need are new myths.  Oddly enough, some of the new
>science and new religion is backing up what the Mary Baker Eddy prosletyzed
>to her masses -- the power of prayer, of "energy" and intention.
>
>      AB: You may be right, and I sort of wish you were, but I am not sure
>that much good science has indeed backed up the power of prayer. There's
>lots of not-so-good science going around, too. 
>
>    3. youtube video   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTb2kp9Y4Is   Shows
>Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber, two new-age "teachers" responding to an
>emotional woman who is speaking about her inner conflicts.
>
>    Regina wrote: I forced myself to watch it.  and I had to force myself to
>watch it. I know that place of what Cynthia dubbed spiritual hunger.  I know
>that place of resistance.  But we've reframed resistance in our psychodrama
>world, no?  Haven't we decided perhaps that resistance is just lack of warm
>up.  and might there be valid reasons for lack of warm up?  Like we, or
>someone else, is pushing us into a role that we don't want or that we don't
>have adequate skills or tools to occupy, or we think we don't have adequate
>skills or tools, but we try to do it anyway because we think we "should" and
>then - to steal for Ellis - we end up "shoulding all over ourselves."  
>
>         AB: I agree and would add a few other comments: 
>
>     a. Is it possible to eliminate sub-personalities, parts of self that
>are regressive? I remember Ram Das saying that after 20 years of meditation
>and spiritual effort (following his psychedelic experiments), he hadn't
>"cured" a single neurotic complex. But, he conceded, they were "smaller."
>
>          I might have answered that a person can have parts of oneself that
>are little-kid I don't want to feelings and that doesn't disqualify the more
>grown-up parts. I think it was Desmond Tutu or someone famous noting that
>courage doesn't mean you're not afraid; rather, it means that you are afraid
>and you go ahead anyway.
>
> 
>
>     b. But what bothered me is the answer-giving behavior. I will confess
>that these guys---more Andrew Cohen, but a bit of Ken Wilber, too---though I
>like many aspects of his philosophical work, but not all--- annoy me.
>Perhaps this helped explain it. (And I admit there may be shadow elements
>here.) I might have refrain from being so ready with answers, but engaged
>instead in something that was more psychodramatic, or at least an inquiry.
>This doesn't fit so neatly into a large class context, but this level of
>learning perhaps should not be subject to that format.
>
>       For example, I can't speak for this person in the video, but I have
>found that symptoms of self-hate often relate to a variety of other issues
>not brought out into the open, and possibly not even consciously related to
>the things at hand.
>
>      This woman was locating the distress in the dissonance between her
>dedication to doing good in social action and the parts of her that don't
>want to do good for others, or even be very grown-up. Perhaps, but unless we
>deal with a general life review, we can't know if this is really what the
>issue is. It may be unfinished issues with a lover, guilt and shame over
>gullibility and sexuality (quite common), lack of clarity in identity and
>vocational commitment (also very common), lack of general map of faith, and
>so on---many possibilities. 
>
>       So I felt annoyed at what seemed to me to be grossly unsophisticated
>psychological pseudo-therapy, with glib answers.
>
> 
>
>     c. The other problem with Cohen, and to some degree Wilber, too, in
>these videos, is the new age babble. It used to be called psychobabble, but
>now it's spiritual-babble. Those are statements that are essentially
>platitudes, cleverly disguised. Many recognized teachers and televangelists
>and others are quite glib, perhaps quite sincere, it all fits in their mind,
>an answer to every questions.
>
> 
>
> (Am I this way and projecting my annoyance on Cohen? Maybe, but I'll be
>open to exploration of words, point by point. I don't think he makes himself
>vulnerable in this way.)
>
> 
>
>     Cohen and many other new age gurus make sweeping statements that cannot
>be disproven. They're too vague. As you think, so your life will be. Not
>really so obvious, because we all think so many internally contradictory
>things. Make your mind pure?  Who has done this, and where is the evidence
>that except for building a new-age following, those who are designated by
>followers and by self as enlightened actually lead more exemplary lives? 
>
> 
>
>       RS: So the political consequences of spirituality - or lack there of
>- I think are dependent on the tenets or myths or misunderstandings that one
>subscribes to.  Not just the leaders - though they certainly have incredible
>power to shape social rhetoric - but the peeps as well...  I personally lost
>at least $10,000 in a break-up because a majority of people in Ohio felt
>moved by their spiritual convictions to deny the rights of marriage to
>unmarried people and denied marriage to same sex couples.  
>       AB: This brings up the whole problem of spirituality and religion,
>and the possibility that many people who pursue a variety of current
>religious agendas (such as anti-homosexual political policies) are bothering
>much with any personal spiritual endeavors. 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>     So, back to trying to clean up email. Warmly, Adam
>