sociatry ideas
Edward Schreiber
edwschreiber at earthlink.net
Wed Aug 12 11:21:39 CDT 2009
Thank you Ann.
Ed
On Aug 12, 2009, at 10:02 AM, Ann Hale wrote:
> That "lady from New Zealand" is Ali Undorf-Lay, a senior policy
> analyst with the Federated Farmers of New Zealand and a recent
> Nuffield Scholar (like a Rhodes Scholar, etc). She traveled the
> world twice last year visiting farmers and farmer organizations, in
> India, Ireland, Turkey, Great Britain, Japan, Switzerland, Canada,
> the US, China, etc. The question of sustainability is a big issue
> for farmers. The tax structures alone are archaic. Most countries
> tax according to land mass, whether it is in productive use or not.
> The farmer throughout the US carries an unfair proportion of
> taxation based on these old tax codes. They can't afford to farm
> anymore. The global issues of food production (we DO have to eat
> something to stay alive, and the world has a lot of hungry people
> in it) and the amount of land it takes to operate a successful farm
> is a major world concern. The farmers are affected by global
> warming as well.
>
> What does it have to do with psychodrama and sociometry? These
> people assemble in groups to discuss concerns. They have to be
> activists to protect the land from encroaching development,
> recreation vehicles in the paddock, etc. They need skills of
> engagement, and the ability to role reverse and strategize. They
> have to use action methods for planning and active encounters in
> conflicts that can become quite heated when the government wants
> you to open your lands to tourists all year round, despite the
> growing season and the disturbancs to livestock.
>
> Psychodrama must be viewed as open for application wherever people
> assemble and have the opportunity to engage in explorations of
> their concerns.
>
> Ali gave us wonderful examples of the application of Morenoean
> methods in non-therapy settings. She should not be dismissed as
> "the lady from New Zealand". She is worthy of her name being
> remembered.
> Ann Hale
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Adam Blatner
> To: Ivo Banaco
> Cc: list at grouptalkweb.org
> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 9:20 AM
> Subject: Re: sociatry ideas
>
> okay, okay, sorrry. I think that lady from New Zealand was
> offering some specific examples---though I didn't see how they
> reflected specifically psychodramatic or morenian methods.
> I do want to encourage positive social action and the general
> ideal of sociatry is fine. I do think the methods can play a role
> in the unfolding of an evolving culture. I'm interested enough, as
> a matter of fact, to wonder what folks are actually coming up with,
> and that motivated me to press in the opposite direction (i.e.,
> press for specifics). I realize that this may have been more
> inhibiting to some than focusing.
> So I like the let's have all the hats approach. Thanks
> Peter and Ivo and Ed... warmly, adam
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ivo Banaco
> To: Adam Blatner
> Cc: Peter Howie ; list at grouptalkweb.org
> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 6:26 AM
> Subject: Re: sociatry ideas
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> I love your blue wisdom hat. I resonate with your discerned words.
> I certainly can see my flaws and insufficient explained arguments.
> If using vigorously my black hat I wouldn't have written a single e-
> mail to the group. If I would formed a team to think about problems
> and trying to come out with some solutions I'd certainly want Adam
> to be there. But for the sake of this particular context here at
> grouptalk I find Adam's iconoclast attitude particularly
> unproductive, though it certainly help me sharpening the arguments.
> Things like separating the whole argument in parts and then
> pointing the flaws is like breaking a house and saying that none of
> the parts are useful to make a shelter. Like deconstructionism have
> shown is very easy to dismantle an argument to a point where
> meaning is nothing and you can say one thing or another that is all
> part of the same round circle. Combining a "rigorously rational
> approach" and a moving forward it's a totally different and more
> demanding thing. For that we need all the hats available...
>
> Thanks for Bono's reference Peter.
>
> Ivo
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 2:13 AM, Adam Blatner
> <ablatner at verizon.net> wrote:
> Hi Peter, thanks for this. Yes, I like de Bono's six thinking hats
> very much, and your analysis is good.
> There's another bit of group process. Because of the relative
> lack of support---a few folks have said online or back channeled
> that they agree with my more rigorously rational approach---which
> comes across black hat--- but it occurs to me that there's no need
> to say anything. If the group chooses to go with Ed's style, that's
> okay with me. I can restrain myself.
> Warmly, Adam
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Peter Howie
> To: grouptalk Listserv
> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:32 PM
> Subject: Re: sociatry ideas
>
> Dear Adam and others,
>
> I have been having fun with Edward de Bono's creativity ideas
> recently and at different times in the past. I am not sure how
> influential he is in the US but in Australia he has found a ready
> home. One of his ideas was the idea of the six thinking hats -
> google away for any number of articles. It seems to me that some of
> the discussion here can be looked at in a few ways. Role theory
> would be one but requires more than we have produced here. So the
> six thinking hats is an attenuated type of taxonomic role theory
> (that is defining the roles not by what is seen and done but buy
> the purpose of the actions). Given this I kind of get the sense
> that Adam you are often taking the black hat approach or feeling
> the need for the black hat and this leads you to socratically pick
> apart arguments, point our logical flaws in many ways act something
> between a lawyer and an academic marking a paper. Whereas others
> here, such as Ed could be seen as using red hat thinking where they
> are passionately presenting their ideas, wisdom and worries, sort
> of an enthusiastic Cassandra while Ivo is working between yellow
> hat which is a logical and positive approach and a green hat which
> is a creative, lateral type approach sort of like a wild and
> refined scientist-philosopher. In writing this I am aware that I
> could be seen to be using a blue hat approach which relates more to
> group process. >From the blue hat perspective and working from the
> 6 thinking hats paradigm, I would recommend that folks respond from
> the same hat for a while before changing hats. Try experimenting
> with unfamiliar hats. I reckon Ed can critique his ideas as well as
> anyone and Ivo can see the looseness of his ideas and Adam can't
> hide the underlying positivity of his posts.
>
> de Bono conceived the purpose of the 6 hats as furthering
> creativity in thinking. Perhaps here we are trying to use argument
> to develop relationships which is always a torturous path. Maybe
> better to develop relationships and then develop the arguments?
>
> Cheers for the moment
>
> Peter
>
>
> Peter Howie B.Sc, TEP
> Managing Director
> The Moreno Collegium for Human Centred Learning, Research and
> Development
> 0411 873 851
> www.morenocollegium.com.au
>
>
>
>
> On 12/08/2009, at 8:19 AM, Adam Blatner wrote:
>
>> Dear Ivo, sorry, I find your effort at being specific to be a
>> weaving of more abstract ideals. For example regarding your
>> example: Specifically what would you imagine anyone doing
>> regarding the financial crisis? Is there any even rationally
>> proposed evidence that identifies one step in this that is
>> unequivocally affected by anything psychodramatic, sociometric,
>> etc.--- (Of course we can say, oh, if only politicians were more
>> deeply concerned about the plight of the people...)
>>
>> We must remember, though, that many people in this catastrophe
>> were greedy and childishly gullible---both those who sold the
>> mortgages and those who bought them. Who are the
>> innocent victims and what specifically (oh I am so sorry for
>> harping on this nasty word) do you suggest to remedy the problem?
>> Should those who were foolish and greedy be allowed so suffer the
>> consequences of their folly? If not, what else would you propose?
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ivo Banaco
>> To: Adam Blatner
>> Cc: list at grouptalkweb.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: sociatry ideas
>>
>> Hi Adam and all,
>>
>> I understand your concerns about the excessive abstraction. In any
>> given area in politics for example I could give you several
>> examples of how the tools generated by psychodrama, sociodrama and
>> for that matter all the so called "consciousness movement" could
>> help. The problem with the specifics is that they could easily
>> loose track of the more general concern of this group. Loosing the
>> forest for a tree is a risk that I don't want to take either. But
>> OK, let's go for it. I will give you a specific...:-)
>>
>> The US economic crisis:
>>
>> Look to the unemployment numbers: about 15 million, a historical
>> number by any standard - 2 years ago unemployment was at more or
>> less 7 million people.
>> ab irrelevant
>>
>> Most of the money is being spent in the rebuilding of the
>> financial system and in some highly questionable economic projects.
>> Name which ones are questionable; describe the
>> consequences of refusing to do this.
>>
>> There are no tools given to politicians, to my knowledge, that
>> help them to look beyond the numbers. Why the financial system
>> broke? If we can see beyond we can look to the financial theatre,
>> the actors, the spontaneity (or the lack of it), the reactivity,
>> the lack of reason, the exuberance, the egoistic approach, etc.
>> remember greed and the willingness to cheat, to almost
>> cheat, to fudge the truth, to say you earn more than you do, to
>> promise unrealistically
>> but that's not my point. The problem with spontaneity is that
>> the Morenian definition begs the question: an effective response
>> to an old situation (is part of the definition) -- but we don't
>> know what will be in fact effective. So the argument is circular.
>> If the politicians had true spontaneity they'd be automatically
>> wise. And of course (saying this sarcastically) we know how to
>> teach them that. Right.
>>
>> What is being done? Simply is being delivered a lot of
>> money to the same guys with the same instruments to mess it up again.
>> aB: I kind of agree with you here and am not sure of the
>> actual rationale. It does seem foolish.
>>
>> IB What could be done? A fundamental intervention, one that
>> can combine all the good stuff that was created (that become
>> possible, for example, to spread the risk, turning some important
>> assets like houses more affordable to poor families - the so
>> called subprime families, etc) with what I would call the
>> subjective and inter-subjective interventions.
>> AB: I am totally bewildered by this---haven't the
>> foggiest idea what you're talking about!
>> How spread the risk? what does that mean? How does this deal
>> with anything Morenian?
>>
>> IB Any important player in the market must have skills
>> beyond its obvious technical abilities.
>>
>> Intersubjective skills, emotional intelligence and so.
>> name one and show how it would apply. Otherwise
>>
>> They are wonderful and highly respected scientific literature
>> supporting this (like Howard Gardner multiple intelligences). But
>> this is a major and complex educational problem.
>>
>> This is the problem--- and almost a cop-out; it's like saying
>> if people could be smart, we'd solve things. But it's not clear
>> that smart people who were psychologically minded would have any
>> ideas that you don't have. So I await more specifics.
>>
>> Our societies gave over the years an increasingly value to
>> cognitive skills that yes, it's true, helped to promote
>> technological progress and material well being. But today we all
>> know that this is not enough and could be danger not only to a
>> particular nation but to the world at large. Society as a whole
>> must gave (urgently I would say) value to several dimensions of
>> the human being. Today an educated man and woman that will go
>> leading business, families, political affairs must have a new
>> sensibility and see things that others are blind to. Psychodrama
>> courses for example could be a priority education project combined
>> with the core training of a given person.
>> ab: see point above. You're implying that holistically
>> enlightened people would be more effective than non-holistically-
>> psychologically enlightened people. sounds plausible, but you
>> haven't made the case that knowing sociometry, psychodrama, or
>> anything Moreno taught---which, though I value it---I'm not yet
>> willing to make serious claims for--- will be proven to do a
>> better job.
>> as you say, it's a complex problem...
>>
>> All psychological literacy (a wonderful term that I get from you)
>> is important to all leaders not in order to absolutize that
>> particular type of knowledge but to give it the place that is
>> deserved (this is particularly important, because to absolutize
>> one dimension of life is a big mistake and a very easy one to make).
>> A "sociatric politician" would have that in the
>> primordial agenda and not just in footnotes don't you think?
>> AB: I can't disagree, because it's so general. You're saying
>> that a politician who is psychologically sensitive and aware would
>> do a better job. I would like to agree, but any scientific or even
>> simply rational person would require you to break the whole idea
>> down into very very specific competencies; test whether each one
>> is very or only slightly relevant to the goal task; and assess how
>> much knowing Morenian stuff makes a difference in policy
>> development. Lacking that tight, meticulous analysis, you're
>> free to make any claims you like and they can't be
>> disproven.
>>
>> IB In a tomorrow's world a economic crisis would not be
>> compensate with 7 new million job loss. We would easily know
>> the tremendous impact at all subjective and intersubjective levels
>> in a family or in a person (emotional, financial, and all the
>> imbalances caused by the situation).
>> AB: Is subjective and intersubjective the latest in
>> psychobabble terms? What about bio-psycho-social, or is that too
>> outdated?
>> Who is the we, how would we know it, the impact at all
>> subjective levels-- can we know the impact of ANYTHING at ALL
>> subjective levels? We as outsiders or as the person feeling
>> it? etc. And who would the people be who are intersubjectively
>> interacting,
>>
>>
>> A business leader would try to reformulate their business with
>> their human resources in a different way.
>>
>> ab: name one specific example
>>
>>
>> People would not be just a number.
>> That implies that all managers or politicians (not most
>> but all) are treating people only as numbers. An easy claim, but
>> not if you interview them or look at the situation closely.
>>
>> Things would be worked out differently.
>>
>> This is the kind of argument that says in effect that if
>> people would be smarter, they'd be better, and then everything
>> would be better. It's unprovable and I can't imagine one specific
>> example of what you're talking about.
>>
>> This is the point of concretization, of setting a scene in
>> psychodrama. Clients in talk therapy tend to talk this way,
>> generalities. We need to cut through abstractions and find out
>> what the actual situation is. If I can't imagine a concrete
>> example I really don't know what you're talking about and it is
>> possible that in believing your own abstractions you're weaving a
>> web of self-delusion that works for you, satisfies your feelings
>> of coherence. Lots of folks live this way----believing in the web
>> or network of loosely assembled platitudes.
>>
>> For example with the natural and frequent use of psychodrama
>> and sociodrama tools other reality surplus would come out,
>> creativity would be raised and solutions be found. Creativity is
>> not just faith or utopia or wishful thinking. It's an endogenous
>> power of the human being that have to be recognize.
>> AB: well, sure. That's kind of my point: I think that
>> as psychological literacy in general penetrates the culture that
>> there may be a development of mental flexibility and the
>> foundations of more consciousness can be built on this---but it
>> would require a thousand other components---political, technical,
>> economic, etc.---also part of the growing infrastructure--- and it
>> will likely take generations if not centuries.
>>
>> IB This is just some quick and not worked thoughts about
>> specific applications in business, leadership, social values and
>> above all education. This is just not just about being aware that
>> psychology and consciousness are important matters to social life.
>> This is about how to integrate in the social activities all the
>> good knowledge that We are being finding without loosing all the
>> good practices that part of what we do already.
>>
>> aB: The question is whether staying at the level of
>> affirming ideals is a lot more effective than the obviously more
>> illusory song verse below.
>>
>> IB The challenges of the integration of the new to a well stablish
>> cultural conserve it's the challenge of life itself, I believe.
>> Some of you guys in grouptalk should have an important voice in
>> political decision making in this crisis. AB: What do you mean
>> "should"? Which ones of us?
>>
>> IB Have Obama called you to ask an opinion? Do you care at all or
>> just keep just wondering like in the Dave Mathews's song:
>> "Tell me everything will be OK if I just stay on my knees and keep
>> praying believing in something
>> Tell me everything is all taken care of by those qualified to take
>> care of it all."
>>
>> AB: I'm reminded of the anecdote of JLM doing one of his
>> first Theatre of Spontaneity, inviting the audience members to
>> come up and be king, and help the chaotic and struggling remnants
>> of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to find a way to accommodate to the
>> changes and realities of the post WWI world.
>>
>> If Obama called me and asked my opinion, I'd have a few things
>> to say, but they'd be pretty obvious and easily arguable. Nor am I
>> sure that I'm ultimately "right" or smarter than him.
>>
>>
>> All the best, Ivo ab: enough. talk to you later.
>>
>> PS: About the word Sociatry. What I find is that iatros, is indeed
>> a physician but iatry comes from iatreia and that is not the
>> healer is the heal itself...and if it is true (and I'm not a
>> specialist) will make all the difference...
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Adam Blatner
>> <ablatner at verizon.net> wrote:
>> Dear Ivo and all,
>> 1. August 10, IB: Right Adam, but feeling that your point 4
>> misleading. In WSS Moreno finds the root of Sociatry in WSS in
>> Socius - the other fellow and iatreia - healing;
>> AB: sorry for the pedantry but I looked it up: Iatros is
>> physician from iasthai ancient greek for heal...
>> socius Latin companion
>>
>> 2. IB All of Moreno's ideas tried to fight the doctor-patient
>> model, and I don't think that sociatry relate to that at all,
>> although I can see your point.
>> AB: Startling statement, unclear how that seems so for
>> you. There's a little bit of truth re his wanting less
>> authoritative group psychotherapy, but his behavior at his
>> sanatarium was quite in keeping with the doctor-patient model.
>>
>> 3. IB But I admit this is a matter of taste, like your
>> dislike about tele.
>> AB: Please don't give people the impression that I dislike tele,
>> but rather think that while the dynamic is of central importance
>> in a more holistic psychology, the term perhaps might be better
>> understood by non-psychodramatists if called something else, such
>> as rapport.
>>
>> 4. IB For me Sociatry calls for a higher level of
>> intervention in society, a inter/ trans disciplinary approach to
>> the socius with a fundamental emphasis to treat it. Quoting
>> Moreno. "The art and skill of the sociatrist will depend upon a
>> synthesis of knowledge toward which all social and psychiatric
>> sciences will have made their contribution." And that doesn't
>> exist yet as such, but we have all the ingredients...we have to
>> cook them!
>> AB: Fine, when you've cooked up something specific let us
>> know.
>>
>> 5 IB Of course we can always question: If that is so what is
>> the difference between sociatry and politics. It should be none
>> but it is not the case at this moment. What sociatry could bring
>> to politics is a type of knowledge (e.g. sociometry, group
>> dynamics, all the invisible structures, cultural bias, etc,) that
>> seems to escape most of politicians today.
>> AB: Sure, it's nice to imagine that our political leaders
>> could know all sorts of things and that this would help, but can
>> you give a single example of how a political leader would act
>> differently, think differently, knowing the above? I'm not saying
>> they wouldn't, but integrating knowledge and ranking its relevance
>> is a problem.
>> More, it is unrealistic to just dump all we know into an
>> expert's lap and expect the expert to know how to pick out what is
>> more or less relevant. (It's surprising how many less-experienced
>> psychotherapists or psychiatrists will present a case by dumping
>> out information in such a way as to demonstrate they they haven't
>> begun to sort out what is more or less important---see my paper on
>> my website on the art of case presentation.)
>>
>> 6. In the future Sociatry could well be the real political
>> action.. why not as sociatry could not exist as such (if it aims a
>> large scale social intervention) without politics? AB: The
>> problem is giving more specifics, more definition: One could also
>> say "Makingbetter" will be the real sociatry, which would also be
>> the real political action.
>>
>> Perhaps this quibbling about terms is unnecessary. I certainly
>> want to support enthusiasm, and the belief that our field has
>> important tools to introduce into the mainline of the culture. I
>> have put this idea into many of my writings.
>> But an excess of abstraction just might evoke a
>> counter-reaction, the appellation of "psychobabble," or some such,
>> so I occasionally comment on this.
>>
>> Best, Ivo AB And good wishes to you...
>> "The term derives from a Latin and Greek root, the
>> one is socius, the “other fellow”, the other iatreia,
>> healing." see above...
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Adam Blatner
>> <ablatner at verizon.net> wrote:
>> Okay, let's see. The world is in trouble in thousands of different
>> ways at many levels. What can "sociatry" do? Which methods are
>> useful with groups beyond the sick role? (i.e., beyond
>> psychotherapy).
>> 1. Starting small: Consider the feminist notion that the
>> personal is political and reverse it. In the 1970s the institution
>> of the happy nuclear family was questioned. Might it for some be a
>> prison? Questioning social arrangements is one example. Could
>> therapy include social action? Groups whose task is to change more
>> than the consciousness of its own members generate new types of
>> group dynamics, concerning as how best to accomplish its chosen
>> tasks.
>>
>> 2. Recognize that sociometry and psychodramatic methods
>> constitute at most only 23.2% of the many different kinds of
>> skills and knowledge involved in social action. Things like
>> composing an effective letter, lobbying, etc. --- there are
>> hundreds or thousands of such components that transcend any
>> particular discipline--- including the skill bases of rhetoric,
>> advertising, spin-doctoring, propaganda, all the elements of
>> politics, lobbying, newsletter editing, community organizing, etc.
>> etc.
>>
>> 3. In a larger sense, much of politics throughout history
>> (including some military efforts) have been rationalized as
>> promoting what was for the time viewed as an improvement on the
>> previous system. For example, feudalism, as prone to tyrrany as at
>> was, was nevertheless believed to be an improvement of some degree
>> of order and predictability, better than what had been happening
>> in the earlier "dark ages" in which people felt far too vulnerable
>> to robbers, invaders, and pure barbarism. In other words:
>>
>> 4. The problem with sociatry is the problem with fascism: The
>> doctor-patient model of the 1940s (relating to the -iatros Greek
>> root meaning physician) involved a wise knower-how-to-diagnose and
>> treat and a submissive patient. This does not apply well to large
>> social groupings. It is not at all clear that anyone knows how to
>> fix it all and can garner adequate consensus for "I'll just tell
>> you what to do and then you take this medicine and follow my
>> 'orders.' type of management.
>> I'm just noting that the word may be misleading. The
>> spirit Moreno advocated is something I share: Let's apply what
>> we're learning in psychology, sociology, and every other field to
>> efforts in every institution---political, educational, economic,
>> clubs, recreation, medicine, etc. I saw his idea as an
>> interdisciplinary vision during an era in which fields were more
>> compartmentalized. Ed's advocacy of social action has merit, but
>> awaiting specifics, I'm not sure that our field has more to offer
>> than other fields. It certainly has some to offer, though!
>>
>> 5. I'm continuing to do adult education classes and weaving in
>> principles from role theory, the idea of externalization and
>> personification of defenses (i.e., imagining that they can be
>> played, given voice, imagined to be little seductive con-men,
>> little Bernie Madoffs or whoever). , and other Morenian ideas
>> along with the contributions of others--- all part of the
>> aforementioned idea of "psychological literacy" or promoting the
>> continued integration of the insights of psychology in life.
>> (In a larger sense, I think sociatry refers in large
>> part to this cultural trend towards bringing psychology into the
>> mainstream of culture rather than its having operated at the
>> periphery as a semi-irrelevant procedure for folks at the margins
>> of society)
>>
>> 6. Writing, publishing, presenting at other conferences, and
>> talking about how psychodramatic and sociometric methods might
>> have applications beyond its own field... I think these are small
>> but not meaningless efforts. A measure of humility is okay.
>>
>> 7. Continuing efforts (and modeling) in integrating good ideas
>> from other fields will also help to break down perceptions of
>> psychodrama as somewhat insular.
>>
>> Those are a few things perhaps that can advance the idea of our
>> field's relevance to social activism.
>> The targets include not only global warming (as Ed
>> noted), but thousands of other worthy causes.
>>
>> Some of these, interestingly, are complex: The question
>> regarding health care for me, for example, is to what degree I
>> support the present kluged-together bill or exert myself for the
>> cause of a single-payer system (as supported by the Physicians for
>> a National Health Plan)? It could be argued that in the present
>> climate, a compromise is necessary and that single-payer has zero
>> chance. On the other hand, the present bill is so fraught with
>> compromises that it will be unsatisfactory in many ways, the
>> problem will "heat up" further, and more radical surgery will be
>> frustrated because "we already tried socialized medicine" (when
>> in fact we only put our toe in the water, so to speak). So
>> political decision-making is a problem in weighing which tactic to
>> use in the interim.
>>
>> Warmly, Adam
>>
>> Grouptalk mailing list
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