A sociatric vision
Jenny Wilson
jenny at blennerhassett.gen.nz
Thu Apr 16 04:40:17 CDT 2009
PS I have finally got hold of Psychodrama: Advances in Theory and
Practice (2007). I am looking forward to reading it with our
conversation as a very good warm-up.
Jenny Wilson wrote:
> Hi Grace, Adam, Peter
>
> Grace
> Thank you for your response - I am remembering you as I read your
> writing and am touched by your contact. As I grapple with psychodrama
> theory your comments about role reversal v's doubling resonate with me
> very strongly. I am reminded of our ANZPA hui and the learning I have
> had in that context. I am reminded me how deeply I am seeped in the
> culture of academic learning, research, journals, medical model etc. and
> wondering how much of my struggle with psychodrama theory is due to my
> inablity to role reverse with Moreno and his culture.
>
> Adam
> My questions about theory do arise in a medical model, academic
> psychology context. As in my earlier post I am looking for theories/
> explanations for psychopathology and somehow even though I KNOW that
> these may not psychodrama appropriate questions I can't help to try and
> work this out. These are the questions that my academic colleagues (who
> are curious and interested in psychodrama) ask me. The clients I see are
> referred in a medical model context - depressed, anxious, etc. Phrases
> such as "social atom repair" as used in our recent ANZPA conference
> brochure are quite mysterious and provoked an interesting tea room
> discussion. Social atom, cultural atom,social-cultural atom. One
> construct or two? No two writers give it the same definition according
> to one thesis I read recently, and how to explain it to a naive
> audience? If we are repairing it then is it broken? how did it get
> broken or what goes wrong that it needs repairing? what exactly are you
> repairing? And are you really repairing or simply adding to or
> increasing something else (spontanaity?)
>
> On the topic of roles. Should we describe roles from the context of the
> observer of from the point of view from the person experiencing them, or
> both if indeed in a drama it is all the internal world of the
> protagonist? Does it matter? At what point does the mean critical
> beastly mother become the stressed unhappy mother struggling to cope the
> best way she can or is that all one role? When a person is experiencing
> a role conflict are they in two roles or one? can you experience two
> roles simultaniously?
>
> I know I have a lot of questions (some of which must seem quite odd). I
> don't really expect anyone to answer all my questions and am willing to
> read and notice and experiment and try and find answers for myself but
> in Moreno's own writing I end up wading through heaps of material that
> leaves me none the wiser. I think I may be asking him the wrong questions!
>
> Perhaps I think too much and am prone to driving myself and others crazy
> with this!!
>
> Peter
> The question of research feels very double edged for me at present - so
> time consuming, sometimes so boring and tedious, and yet without it hard
> to move forward in these times. I'm really disappointed to hear that
> your outcome research was not well received. I have read the CBT
> psychodrama journal you mention and found it most inspiring and helpful
> for me. My psychodrama thesis is currently being marked and is on this
> topic. I'll make sure copies are widely accessable once it is completed.
> By the way I was at conference - your speech had quite an impact on me
> and the quote "we are the ones we have been waiting for" keeps flicking
> into my consciousness like a small persistent light and won't be forgotten.
>
> Well this has turned out to be a very long e-mail - thank you to those
> who have taken time to read and reply. I appreciate the company as I
> grapple with all this.
>
> Warm regards
> Jenny
>
>
>
>
> Grace wrote:
>> Kia ora Jenny,
>>
>> I have enjoyed your input, and am responding to your comment about reversing
>> roles.
>>
>> I agree with you that reversing roles with providers and funders is
>> necessary if psychodrama is going to survive as a recognised therapeutic
>> method in any sense. Similarly role reversal is also required for those of
>> us working in an organisational context, and in my work I see this as an
>> integral part of our planning and programme development.
>>
>> I do also think that in its essence the Canon of Creativity is a
>> delightfully simple, clear, elegant theory and also quite rigorous. However
>> it is quite a journey to work out how to communicate this through means that
>> are understandable to those who operate in a different paradigm; especially
>> when Moreno's method is an experiential one and it is easy to presume there
>> is little focus on developing a rigorous intellectual understanding of how
>> it works.
>>
>> I am not so sure however that role reversal is quite so necessary for those
>> working in those 'empirically supported therapies', as it seems to me that
>> their methodologies arise from a similar paradigm/cultural conserve. In
>> effect my picture on it is that they already 'double' each other so it's not
>> necessary.
>>
>> Na
>> Grace
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org [mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org]
>> On Behalf Of Jenny Wilson
>> Sent: Thursday, 16 April 2009 12:37 p.m.
>> To: Adam Blatner
>> Cc: list at grouptalkweb.org
>> Subject: Re: A sociatric vision
>>
>> Hi
>> Thanks to those contributing to this discussion - very interesting! I
>> appreciate you clarifying the use of the word "therapy" Adam - that
>> makes sense to me and helps me by putting Moreno's writing about therapy
>> in a different context.
>>
>> While I appreciate the wholistic vision of psychodrama I also suggest
>> that unless some of the specifics are attended to within psychodrama
>> theory then the here-and-now reality of psychodrama surviving as a
>> therapy are under serious threat. (although no doubt in will survive in
>> other spheres). My primary training is in CBT. In 45 years CBT has grown
>> from the vision of one or two people to becoming a huge therapy movement
>> - much as I appreciate CBT I do not wish to see other therapies
>> (particularly psychodrama) disappear before the mighty force of
>> empirically supported therapies. CBT's own research tells us we need
>> other options for clients for whom CBT is not useful.
>>
>> In New Zealand it is difficult to find other therapy options within
>> publicly funded services (e.g., Health System or Corrections/Justice )
>> that are not CBT based. For all its limitations CBT practitioners have
>> been able to reverse roles with funders and providers, opening doors for
>> themselves and in the process shutting doors for other practitioners.
>> While we may hope for (and work towards)a paradigm shift where many
>> different options are valued and a vision of societal change, in the
>> meantime we work within the system we have. A system that requires clear
>> definitions, explanations, specific goals and research evidence of
>> effectiveness.
>>
>> My own biases are clear I guess. I can enter and appreciate mystery and
>> the unknown (my "right brain" moves me to tears again and again in the
>> mystical experience of psychodrama ) but I crave clarity, academic
>> rigour and delight in the creativity of an elegant theory!
>>
>> regards
>> Jenny
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Adam Blatner wrote:
>>> Hi all. Building on other's comments:
>>>
>>> I think that envisioning a world-wide change has at best only the
>>> most limited value. In my mind it is as useless as a serious
>>> contemplation over what happened "before" the Big Bang or what will
>>> happen after the Sun burns out. I'm more focused on what are the
>>> possibilities in the next century. To that end, I think of what we can
>>> do to build a better world, and as I've said in other contexts, we need
>>> specifics. The problem with generalizations is that, like platitudes,
>>> they give the illusion that we're going somewhere important and
>>> positive, while doing nothing---and even supporting (unconsciously)
>>> waiting around for others (mommy) to do something specific.
>>> Regarding the word "therapy,"-- Moreno was at that time using
>>> the term to be not classical medical-model psychotherapy, but rather as
>>> the only word that seemed to fit---remedy, really, or constructive
>>> action. The choice of the word "sociatry" was equally misleading (in
>>> light of the trends in the field of medicine, becoming increasingly
>>> scientific, materialistic, and evidence-based, not to say subsumed under
>>> the aegis of managed care administrators. (Docs used to be at the top of
>>> the status and authority pyramind, but now are under the bean-counters
>>> and often lumped in with any other "service provider" (such as massage
>>> therapists) as one who, well, provides a service. Little professionalism
>>> is recognized.
>>> Any way, the "-iatros" greek suffix in sociatry suggests
>>> psychiatry, and as I said, that was also back when psychiatry was more
>>> psychoanalytic and other approaches (existential, group, etc.), so
>>> Moreno was interesting, but not completely out of the mainstream.
>>>
>>> Anyway, my focus has been more educational---but there's a fuzzy
>>> area between therapy and education, because part of therapy in the
>>> broadest sense is to promote health through self-care, nutrition,
>>> stress-management, etc., and that requires a mixture of books,
>>> instruction, classes, experiential learning, etc.
>>> Many people still view therapy in the medical model of a
>>> relatively passive and uninformed patient, but increasingly, especially
>>> in the world of psychotherapy, what is recognized is that the process
>>> does much better when clients are active and informed.
>>>
>>> My goal is to help people learn the skills and concepts that
>>> begin to build the infrastructure for evolving consciousness. Sociometry
>>> offers some facets and methods that have for the most part been
>>> overlooked, and I think will be intrinsic to a holistic program.
>>> One of my concerns is that people will think that knowing
>>> sociometry and psychodrama would be sufficient, and as excellent as
>>> these components are, I think we need to recognize that the evolution of
>>> consciousness will also require the development of knowledge, skills,
>>> and practice in hundreds of other areas.
>>>
>>> Warmly, Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* thana ag <mailto:anathga at hotmail.com>
>>> *To:* peter howie <mailto:peterhowie at macquariehouse.com.au> ;
>>> list at grouptalkweb.org <mailto:list at grouptalkweb.org>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:15 AM
>>> *Subject:* RE: A sociatric vision
>>>
>>> Dear Adam,
>>> I pointed out to the second sentence as an example of lack of
>>> clarity,begging the Q -why therapy.:
>>> " But no adequate therapy can be prescribed as long as mankind is
>>> not a unity in same fashion and as long as its organization remains
>>> unknown. "(p.3)
>>> As I read the sentence: As long as mankind is not in unity,and its
>>> organization (the unity's? therapy's ?)remains unknown-no adequate
>>> therapy can be prescribed.
>>> But if mankind is in unity(either b/c global threat to its existence
>>> forces its to unite,and give up on egoism-or else it is will be
>>> destroyed,or is in unity due to education and enlightened
>>> choice,etc,as Adam suggests,and most spiritual leaders-if that is
>>> the case-why need therapy?
>>>
>>> Unless therapy then gets redefined-the organization of which is
>>> unknown at this point.
>>> anath
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> From: peterhowie at macquariehouse.com.au
>>> To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>>> Subject: Re: A sociatric vision
>>> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:54:40 +1000
>>>
>>> Dear Adam,
>>>
>>> One aspect of the grail legend I like is when the question is put
>>> (to a young Arthur? - can't quite remember) "Whom do you serve?"
>>> which is such a good question. In some of the men's movements in Qld
>>> this is a centrally asked question and is used in rituals and
>>> stories. At the web site http://www.pathwaysfoundation.com.au/ you
>>> can see some of the work folks are doing in this area. and some is
>>> getting grants and others forms of mainstream support.
>>>
>>> While they could sure use some psychodramatic/sociodramatic methods
>>> they do a good job as is. It is one rea I am trying to influence but
>>> it is more conservative than the main stream world.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> On 15/04/2009, at 1:08 AM, Adam Blatner wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, all. Re the 2nd sentence of Moreno's WSS: Wow, a big order.
>>> ... . But no adequate therapy can be prescribed as long as
>>> mankind is not a unity in same fashion and as long as its
>>> organization remains unknown. (p.3)
>>>
>>> Well, it's worth analyzing this vision: My own focus
>>> tends to be on building the infrastructure. The goal in general
>>> is okay. One might re-state it in many ways, but I am reminded
>>> of a verse from that 1970s song by the Youngboods "Come
>>> on people, smile on your brother, everybody get together, try to
>>> love one another right
>>> now."
>> http://www.rhapsody.com/the-youngbloods/best-of-the-youngbloods/get-together
>> /lyrics.html
>>>
>>> The infrastructure I mentioned involves a development
>>> of skills in the general population in the areas of
>>> communications, self-awareness, and emotional problem-solving. (
>>> http://www.blatner.com/adam/level2/dramaed.htm ) I see
>>> psychodramatic methods' main applications (with the greatest
>>> impact in the long run) in the areas of education and
>>> community-building, and maybe even recreation. (e.g. improv
>>> classes, personal development classes).
>>>
>>> While psychotherapy has been the center of gravity
>>> for the mid-late 20th century, it is quickly pricing itself out
>>> of access by most people; and its premise appeals primarily to
>>> that small, if not tiny minority who are actually interested in
>>> changing their own consciousness. (Most folks wouldn't find the
>>> idea appealing, it seems to me, and even those words,
>>> "consciousness expansion," would seem foreign and "woo-woo" to
>>> most folks I encounter. Is that true about not your friends but
>>> your relatives?)
>>>
>>> Applications in addictionology are intriguing in one
>>> respect: A certain portion of people with addictions are bright
>>> and energetic and if they can get it, as did Bill W., they
>>> become forces for good in the world. Humbled by having seduced
>>> themselves, they may be more able to see how people are being
>>> seduced by inner and outer temptations in a score of different
>> ways.
>>>
>>> (My theory of the rite of passage for young people in the
>>> postmodern world is a ritual in which they'd see that the battle
>>> against evil doesn't involve one demonic bad guy and one to
>>> several superheroes, but something a little closer to the grail
>>> legend: The real battle is within, the higher, more nobler self
>>> being taught and empowered to recognize and challenge the
>>> seductions of a hundred inner demons or personifications of
>>> lower-self, who would work to achieve the short-term goals of
>>> illusory power, complacency, mental insulation, reliance on the
>>> cultural conserve, the safety of status, stability of social
>>> arrangements, and so forth. I envision a ritual in which all
>>> these ways of keeping people caught up in mild psychopathology
>>> ---and they're almost universal, to some degree--- would be
>>> enacted; the initiate would need to work out in small
>>> psychodramas ways of confronting and getting by these seductions
>>> or blockages. ... )
>>>
>>> The point here is that people need to stop projecting their
>>> shadow complexes outward and trying to fight the evil they see
>>> "out there," and begin instead to recognize (a) the dynamic of
>>> projection, which is one of the more powerful aforementioned
>>> demons; (b) the need to own and then discipline the sources of
>>> shadow complex. Many of these are okay needs that tend to get
>>> grabby, overshoot the mark because of fear. So, for example, the
>>> healthy desire to be effective gets over-extended into the
>>> desire for one-upsmanship; superiority, as Adler meant it, can
>>> be a healthy sense of mastery or it can transform into the
>>> illusory feeling of being better than---often because one has
>>> devalued another! And there are scores of other dynamics to be
>>> recognized and overcome, such as the many "Games People Play"
>>> described by Eric Berne.
>>>
>>> Warmly, Adam
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
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