A sociatric vision
Jenny Wilson
jenny at blennerhassett.gen.nz
Thu Apr 16 04:25:46 CDT 2009
Hi Grace, Adam, Peter
Grace
Thank you for your response - I am remembering you as I read your
writing and am touched by your contact. As I grapple with psychodrama
theory your comments about role reversal v's doubling resonate with me
very strongly. I am reminded of our ANZPA hui and the learning I have
had in that context. I am reminded me how deeply I am seeped in the
culture of academic learning, research, journals, medical model etc. and
wondering how much of my struggle with psychodrama theory is due to my
inablity to role reverse with Moreno and his culture.
Adam
My questions about theory do arise in a medical model, academic
psychology context. As in my earlier post I am looking for theories/
explanations for psychopathology and somehow even though I KNOW that
these may not psychodrama appropriate questions I can't help to try and
work this out. These are the questions that my academic colleagues (who
are curious and interested in psychodrama) ask me. The clients I see are
referred in a medical model context - depressed, anxious, etc. Phrases
such as "social atom repair" as used in our recent ANZPA conference
brochure are quite mysterious and provoked an interesting tea room
discussion. Social atom, cultural atom,social-cultural atom. One
construct or two? No two writers give it the same definition according
to one thesis I read recently, and how to explain it to a naive
audience? If we are repairing it then is it broken? how did it get
broken or what goes wrong that it needs repairing? what exactly are you
repairing? And are you really repairing or simply adding to or
increasing something else (spontanaity?)
On the topic of roles. Should we describe roles from the context of the
observer of from the point of view from the person experiencing them, or
both if indeed in a drama it is all the internal world of the
protagonist? Does it matter? At what point does the mean critical
beastly mother become the stressed unhappy mother struggling to cope the
best way she can or is that all one role? When a person is experiencing
a role conflict are they in two roles or one? can you experience two
roles simultaniously?
I know I have a lot of questions (some of which must seem quite odd). I
don't really expect anyone to answer all my questions and am willing to
read and notice and experiment and try and find answers for myself but
in Moreno's own writing I end up wading through heaps of material that
leaves me none the wiser. I think I may be asking him the wrong questions!
Perhaps I think too much and am prone to driving myself and others crazy
with this!!
Peter
The question of research feels very double edged for me at present - so
time consuming, sometimes so boring and tedious, and yet without it hard
to move forward in these times. I'm really disappointed to hear that
your outcome research was not well received. I have read the CBT
psychodrama journal you mention and found it most inspiring and helpful
for me. My psychodrama thesis is currently being marked and is on this
topic. I'll make sure copies are widely accessable once it is completed.
By the way I was at conference - your speech had quite an impact on me
and the quote "we are the ones we have been waiting for" keeps flicking
into my consciousness like a small persistent light and won't be forgotten.
Well this has turned out to be a very long e-mail - thank you to those
who have taken time to read and reply. I appreciate the company as I
grapple with all this.
Warm regards
Jenny
Grace wrote:
> Kia ora Jenny,
>
> I have enjoyed your input, and am responding to your comment about reversing
> roles.
>
> I agree with you that reversing roles with providers and funders is
> necessary if psychodrama is going to survive as a recognised therapeutic
> method in any sense. Similarly role reversal is also required for those of
> us working in an organisational context, and in my work I see this as an
> integral part of our planning and programme development.
>
> I do also think that in its essence the Canon of Creativity is a
> delightfully simple, clear, elegant theory and also quite rigorous. However
> it is quite a journey to work out how to communicate this through means that
> are understandable to those who operate in a different paradigm; especially
> when Moreno's method is an experiential one and it is easy to presume there
> is little focus on developing a rigorous intellectual understanding of how
> it works.
>
> I am not so sure however that role reversal is quite so necessary for those
> working in those 'empirically supported therapies', as it seems to me that
> their methodologies arise from a similar paradigm/cultural conserve. In
> effect my picture on it is that they already 'double' each other so it's not
> necessary.
>
> Na
> Grace
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org [mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org]
> On Behalf Of Jenny Wilson
> Sent: Thursday, 16 April 2009 12:37 p.m.
> To: Adam Blatner
> Cc: list at grouptalkweb.org
> Subject: Re: A sociatric vision
>
> Hi
> Thanks to those contributing to this discussion - very interesting! I
> appreciate you clarifying the use of the word "therapy" Adam - that
> makes sense to me and helps me by putting Moreno's writing about therapy
> in a different context.
>
> While I appreciate the wholistic vision of psychodrama I also suggest
> that unless some of the specifics are attended to within psychodrama
> theory then the here-and-now reality of psychodrama surviving as a
> therapy are under serious threat. (although no doubt in will survive in
> other spheres). My primary training is in CBT. In 45 years CBT has grown
> from the vision of one or two people to becoming a huge therapy movement
> - much as I appreciate CBT I do not wish to see other therapies
> (particularly psychodrama) disappear before the mighty force of
> empirically supported therapies. CBT's own research tells us we need
> other options for clients for whom CBT is not useful.
>
> In New Zealand it is difficult to find other therapy options within
> publicly funded services (e.g., Health System or Corrections/Justice )
> that are not CBT based. For all its limitations CBT practitioners have
> been able to reverse roles with funders and providers, opening doors for
> themselves and in the process shutting doors for other practitioners.
> While we may hope for (and work towards)a paradigm shift where many
> different options are valued and a vision of societal change, in the
> meantime we work within the system we have. A system that requires clear
> definitions, explanations, specific goals and research evidence of
> effectiveness.
>
> My own biases are clear I guess. I can enter and appreciate mystery and
> the unknown (my "right brain" moves me to tears again and again in the
> mystical experience of psychodrama ) but I crave clarity, academic
> rigour and delight in the creativity of an elegant theory!
>
> regards
> Jenny
>
>
>
>
> Adam Blatner wrote:
>> Hi all. Building on other's comments:
>>
>> I think that envisioning a world-wide change has at best only the
>> most limited value. In my mind it is as useless as a serious
>> contemplation over what happened "before" the Big Bang or what will
>> happen after the Sun burns out. I'm more focused on what are the
>> possibilities in the next century. To that end, I think of what we can
>> do to build a better world, and as I've said in other contexts, we need
>> specifics. The problem with generalizations is that, like platitudes,
>> they give the illusion that we're going somewhere important and
>> positive, while doing nothing---and even supporting (unconsciously)
>> waiting around for others (mommy) to do something specific.
>> Regarding the word "therapy,"-- Moreno was at that time using
>> the term to be not classical medical-model psychotherapy, but rather as
>> the only word that seemed to fit---remedy, really, or constructive
>> action. The choice of the word "sociatry" was equally misleading (in
>> light of the trends in the field of medicine, becoming increasingly
>> scientific, materialistic, and evidence-based, not to say subsumed under
>> the aegis of managed care administrators. (Docs used to be at the top of
>> the status and authority pyramind, but now are under the bean-counters
>> and often lumped in with any other "service provider" (such as massage
>> therapists) as one who, well, provides a service. Little professionalism
>> is recognized.
>> Any way, the "-iatros" greek suffix in sociatry suggests
>> psychiatry, and as I said, that was also back when psychiatry was more
>> psychoanalytic and other approaches (existential, group, etc.), so
>> Moreno was interesting, but not completely out of the mainstream.
>>
>> Anyway, my focus has been more educational---but there's a fuzzy
>> area between therapy and education, because part of therapy in the
>> broadest sense is to promote health through self-care, nutrition,
>> stress-management, etc., and that requires a mixture of books,
>> instruction, classes, experiential learning, etc.
>> Many people still view therapy in the medical model of a
>> relatively passive and uninformed patient, but increasingly, especially
>> in the world of psychotherapy, what is recognized is that the process
>> does much better when clients are active and informed.
>>
>> My goal is to help people learn the skills and concepts that
>> begin to build the infrastructure for evolving consciousness. Sociometry
>> offers some facets and methods that have for the most part been
>> overlooked, and I think will be intrinsic to a holistic program.
>> One of my concerns is that people will think that knowing
>> sociometry and psychodrama would be sufficient, and as excellent as
>> these components are, I think we need to recognize that the evolution of
>> consciousness will also require the development of knowledge, skills,
>> and practice in hundreds of other areas.
>>
>> Warmly, Adam
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* thana ag <mailto:anathga at hotmail.com>
>> *To:* peter howie <mailto:peterhowie at macquariehouse.com.au> ;
>> list at grouptalkweb.org <mailto:list at grouptalkweb.org>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:15 AM
>> *Subject:* RE: A sociatric vision
>>
>> Dear Adam,
>> I pointed out to the second sentence as an example of lack of
>> clarity,begging the Q -why therapy.:
>> " But no adequate therapy can be prescribed as long as mankind is
>> not a unity in same fashion and as long as its organization remains
>> unknown. "(p.3)
>> As I read the sentence: As long as mankind is not in unity,and its
>> organization (the unity's? therapy's ?)remains unknown-no adequate
>> therapy can be prescribed.
>> But if mankind is in unity(either b/c global threat to its existence
>> forces its to unite,and give up on egoism-or else it is will be
>> destroyed,or is in unity due to education and enlightened
>> choice,etc,as Adam suggests,and most spiritual leaders-if that is
>> the case-why need therapy?
>>
>> Unless therapy then gets redefined-the organization of which is
>> unknown at this point.
>> anath
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: peterhowie at macquariehouse.com.au
>> To: list at grouptalkweb.org
>> Subject: Re: A sociatric vision
>> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:54:40 +1000
>>
>> Dear Adam,
>>
>> One aspect of the grail legend I like is when the question is put
>> (to a young Arthur? - can't quite remember) "Whom do you serve?"
>> which is such a good question. In some of the men's movements in Qld
>> this is a centrally asked question and is used in rituals and
>> stories. At the web site http://www.pathwaysfoundation.com.au/ you
>> can see some of the work folks are doing in this area. and some is
>> getting grants and others forms of mainstream support.
>>
>> While they could sure use some psychodramatic/sociodramatic methods
>> they do a good job as is. It is one rea I am trying to influence but
>> it is more conservative than the main stream world.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> On 15/04/2009, at 1:08 AM, Adam Blatner wrote:
>>
>> Hi, all. Re the 2nd sentence of Moreno's WSS: Wow, a big order.
>> ... . But no adequate therapy can be prescribed as long as
>> mankind is not a unity in same fashion and as long as its
>> organization remains unknown. (p.3)
>>
>> Well, it's worth analyzing this vision: My own focus
>> tends to be on building the infrastructure. The goal in general
>> is okay. One might re-state it in many ways, but I am reminded
>> of a verse from that 1970s song by the Youngboods "Come
>> on people, smile on your brother, everybody get together, try to
>> love one another right
>> now."
> http://www.rhapsody.com/the-youngbloods/best-of-the-youngbloods/get-together
> /lyrics.html
>>
>> The infrastructure I mentioned involves a development
>> of skills in the general population in the areas of
>> communications, self-awareness, and emotional problem-solving. (
>> http://www.blatner.com/adam/level2/dramaed.htm ) I see
>> psychodramatic methods' main applications (with the greatest
>> impact in the long run) in the areas of education and
>> community-building, and maybe even recreation. (e.g. improv
>> classes, personal development classes).
>>
>> While psychotherapy has been the center of gravity
>> for the mid-late 20th century, it is quickly pricing itself out
>> of access by most people; and its premise appeals primarily to
>> that small, if not tiny minority who are actually interested in
>> changing their own consciousness. (Most folks wouldn't find the
>> idea appealing, it seems to me, and even those words,
>> "consciousness expansion," would seem foreign and "woo-woo" to
>> most folks I encounter. Is that true about not your friends but
>> your relatives?)
>>
>> Applications in addictionology are intriguing in one
>> respect: A certain portion of people with addictions are bright
>> and energetic and if they can get it, as did Bill W., they
>> become forces for good in the world. Humbled by having seduced
>> themselves, they may be more able to see how people are being
>> seduced by inner and outer temptations in a score of different
> ways.
>>
>> (My theory of the rite of passage for young people in the
>> postmodern world is a ritual in which they'd see that the battle
>> against evil doesn't involve one demonic bad guy and one to
>> several superheroes, but something a little closer to the grail
>> legend: The real battle is within, the higher, more nobler self
>> being taught and empowered to recognize and challenge the
>> seductions of a hundred inner demons or personifications of
>> lower-self, who would work to achieve the short-term goals of
>> illusory power, complacency, mental insulation, reliance on the
>> cultural conserve, the safety of status, stability of social
>> arrangements, and so forth. I envision a ritual in which all
>> these ways of keeping people caught up in mild psychopathology
>> ---and they're almost universal, to some degree--- would be
>> enacted; the initiate would need to work out in small
>> psychodramas ways of confronting and getting by these seductions
>> or blockages. ... )
>>
>> The point here is that people need to stop projecting their
>> shadow complexes outward and trying to fight the evil they see
>> "out there," and begin instead to recognize (a) the dynamic of
>> projection, which is one of the more powerful aforementioned
>> demons; (b) the need to own and then discipline the sources of
>> shadow complex. Many of these are okay needs that tend to get
>> grabby, overshoot the mark because of fear. So, for example, the
>> healthy desire to be effective gets over-extended into the
>> desire for one-upsmanship; superiority, as Adler meant it, can
>> be a healthy sense of mastery or it can transform into the
>> illusory feeling of being better than---often because one has
>> devalued another! And there are scores of other dynamics to be
>> recognized and overcome, such as the many "Games People Play"
>> described by Eric Berne.
>>
>> Warmly, Adam
>>
>>
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