structure versus reality

Tue Oct 14 20:49:36 CDT 2008

Dear Ed,
Thanks for thanking me for my 2million contribution,elevated from 2cents!.. and in current market!
So glad you've  confirmed what I suspected/sensed ,that JL Moreno was inspired by Kabballah . STUDIED IT? What more did Zerka tell you.  I am giving a workshop in St Luis entitled : Kabballah meets Moreno.  . So  it would be nice to hear what she said about Moerno and Kabballah..
I love Moreno's methodology,and it is part of me,that way of thinking, as you well know,but as for the underlying structures- and the flow towards unity -the ancient ones had described it  already in much detail
 3 cents..
anath

CC: adam at blatner.com; list at grouptalkweb.org
From: edwschreiber at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: structure versus reality
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 02:02:07 -0400
To: anathga at hotmail.com

Dear Anath,Thanks for your (much more than) 2 cents contribution.I feel that in clear and precise terms you have given a profound and clear understanding of JL Morero's METHOD OF SEEING AND KNOWING what the world, these structures, and the solution - is all about.  I am not a student of the Kaballah but I know Moreno was. I know that from Zerka.And I suspect there is much, very much in the teachings of the Kaballah that will assist and help us to further refine our understanding of Moreno's method.  He drew his inspiration from the great spiritual traditions, rather than biology - his method is a spiritual tradition, a path of awakening really.  What else could it be?  It invokes (and in fact provokes) the Godhead to show ITSELF to a group, it invites that emergence within the organism of the individual, and sociometry reveals the telic connections which when used with a Sociatric consciousness, reverses the sociodynamic effect in a small group, and then the Organic Unity emerges, moves people to a Unity.  What more can we ask for!  We have a method that is as sacred as any religious or spiritual tradition - and it belongs to humanity now!   Much much much thanks for your 2 Million (vs. 2 cents) contribution!   Ed
On Oct 13, 2008, at 11:00 PM, thana ag wrote: Dear Adam,Ed and all,

Adam:To say that Moreno found objective reality underlying all relations is extremely problematic. He noticed that rapport is an important dynamic that is worth attending to. This is no small contribution! I honor him for it and think this angle has yet to be fully developed.

Anath: perhaps a way to reconcile the statement that Moreno found an objective reality underlying all relations,by noticing that rapport ."tele" ,,is an underlying dynamic universally present -: would be to point out that if we consciously develop this  "telic ability"  and will resonate empathically with others,indeed we will discern a whole new underlying reality
. Kabalah points out that there is where our evolution as species is headed,or else worse disasters than current ones,a result of human greed etc will befall us.It will necessitate us to "discover" our underlying unity,or whatever name we want to call it, and act accordingly. .But can we say that that universe existed before and by developing the "empathy" we were able to  discern it,or that we  co created it through our experience.?
. 
Here is my 2cents contribution
anath 

From: ablatner at verizon.net
To: edwschreiber at earthlink.net
Subject: structure versus reality
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:34:44 -0500
CC: list at grouptalkweb.org

 Dear Ed and all,         We must differentiate structure and reality. At a certain level of philosophy, word meanings are not to be easily discounted as mere quibbling.       I tend to hold with Ken Wilber's 4-quadrant view of reality that includes as real---not more or less real, but to be balanced in:            1. Interior subjectivity    2. Inter-subjectivity, the "we," what we create and agree to;  3. Exterior objectivity--- cells, brains, physical buildings, planets     and 4. Objective collectivities: Associations, organizations, tribes.   All exist, interpenetrate, influence each other and themselves at different levels.         So my comment on structure invites us to differentiate between physical structure---actual threads in the spider web--- and realms of mind and society--- which, because of their many frames of reference and dimensions (humor, politics, economics, literature, drama, therapy, etc.) cannot have a clear structure.         We may discern models to which we assign metaphors, seeming structures, but close inspection shows areas of blurring, overlap, and contexts in which our model doesn't adequately work.          So I don't deny external reality or circumstances. I do call into question our interpretations of these (quadrant numbers 1 and 2, and a little number 4) , as these may shift with viewpoint and history, for example. They may be useful---our imagined structures--- but they are still mental co-creations...         To say that Moreno found objective reality underlying all relations is extremely problematic. He noticed that rapport is an important dynamic that is worth attending to. This is no small contribution! I honor him for it and think this angle has yet to be fully developed.               Now the uncle example and money---ah, money!  Money is such a good example of the overlap between quadrants 2 and 4, especially: the intersubjective (what you and I think something is worth) and the collective (what "they" think it's worth, and how it gets measured, negotiated, exchanged---the whole ambiguous realm of economics.)         One reason economics has been called the dismal science is that fixed structures that apply to all contexts are hard to pin down and get general consensus. Often they betray underlying political biases. There are some more resilient principles, some less so--- are there any structures in the general realms of economics? Debatable.             (Even the structured packages that contain problematic mortgages are structures only of current laws, regulations, standards, expectations, and so forth.)         To think that slapping a label of the SDE (sociodynamic effect) on it adequately or even partially explains anything --- well, maybe it does, but as yet I haven't seen a cogent explanation. (Nor does the label of schizophrenia explain the complex and still mysterious phenomena attending that condition.)  Labels don't explain that much.          Ed, I appreciate your enthusiasm. And perhaps you really see more specifics in among your generalities than I have been able to discern. But until these are pointed out, well, I have difficulty appreciating Moreno's writings as more than general envisionings in directions that (for the most part) evoke my sympathy.         Sorry to hear about your uncle's plight, by the way. I fear we may hear many more stories like this as various relatives and friends begin to share their stories. He's lucky to have a caring nephew.   Warmly, Adam     ----- Original Message -----   From:   Edward Schreiber   To: Grouptalk Listserv   Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 2:30   PM  Subject: What is Real?  
  Dear   Colleagues,  
  Sorry for a delay in responding   to this thread of emails, a worthy conversation for sure.  I had some   family issues - an 89 year old Uncle ran out of money in the collapse of the   economy - and so family had to be brought together.   I want to respond   to Adam Blatner's comments:  
  AB: "This dialectical tension   between two ideas is also present in Moreno's claim that society "has" a   structure. There is no out-there objective structure, and one might well argue   (as have a number of philosophers, at length) that it is misleading to imagine   that objectivity is a sufficient way of thinking about reality---it denies our   co-creative structuring of reality via our own   consciousness!"        "The   political implications are that we must resist becoming over-inflated and   grandiose (and resist unconsciously imitating Moreno), but rather we should   explore ways we can implement various models and create new ones."  
  "The   problems with some of these concepts is that they generate great ambition   while delivering elusive actual methods (except those that which can be used   by individuals and in small groups of willing and educated   participants)."   

  I agree that there is a subject nature to what we   each experience as real.  This subjectivity is what we bring to our work   and our lives.  To suggest that there is "no out-there objective   structure" is a bit concerning.  The objective structure for me this last   week was that Uncle E., in New Rochelle NY has social security income that is   1/3 of his present expenses.  This income was supported with dividends   from stocks that Seniors (once) felt would help them in their final years of   their lives.  Not the case for the working poor.  The task, in my   experience with it all, is to tease out my subjective response to these   objective realities.  The quick-melt of the polar caps is an objective   reality.  The fact that in one week an 89 year old writer living alone in   New York State found his life's savings gone - is both objective and   subjective.  The world and its structures are real.  Our subjective   realities - in response to the world - impact our own physiological,   biological, spiritual, emotional realities.    
  The fact that J.L. Moreno FOUND objective reality   underlying and determining all groups, all systems, all societies - has led me   to pierce my own subjective reaction, to highten my consciousness ---- and yes   ---- to determine a course of action.  In years past, as a social   scientist my concern was on the systems in collapse of the natural world.    At first the dying bee population REALLY caught my attention, as have   the polar shifts, polar melts, polar bears, changing climates, fires in   California, draughts in Africa, and the vanished clean water in many places   around the Globe.  
  Dr. Moreno's writings (in almost all his works) have   pointed to this objective reality of human civilization, the sociodynamic   effect.  The long awakening of seeing this objective reality has been for   me as for most of us, been experience and observed, witnessed and experienced   through the filters that our subjective minds have formed as a way to make   meaning to this objective reality.    
  I just do buy the notion that subjectivity is real   and objective reality is  not.  The sociodynamic effect is   everywhere.  Where did my Uncle's 285. dollars vanish to?  Did it   just evaporate?  Did it, this sum, find its way to a black hole?    Sure, the value of "a stock" became of less value - and of course I and   all my family have had subjective reactions - but this sucking of resources   away from the many is not only subjective, it is real - it is in the world -   it is the nature of the civilization in which we are living.  
  On the other side of this same coin is the potential   to "co-create" something new.  That I fully agree - but new in what way?    To see the world through the lens of the sociodynamic effect has made   objective reality clearer - less muddied with overlays of explanation that in   the end simply explain away this sociodynamic effect.  We are at a great   moment in humanity's history, don't you think?  For most of humanity's   short stay, the sociodynamic effect impacted all social groupings, all nations   - emerging in cultures, histories, conflicts, and peace.  The reversal of   the sociodynamic effect the same.    
  The nature of the Organic Unity of Humanity   (connected to the Source animating every sentient life) is another reality,   seemingly throughout history. Jesus, Gandhi,   Martin Luther King, Lincoln, on and on - were   sociometrists bringing forward "A New Earth" (as Eckhardt Tolle notes) but now   we, humanity, are in the end stage of the sociodynamic effect with nature and   the earth itself, or at least that is what some of the enviornmental sciences   suggest.  For example, how can 3 percent of the human family use 28   percent of all the resources?  Can we sustain this?  At whose   expense?  Those stripped of resources, will they survive?    
  The point is, for me, JL Moreno's GRANDIOSE   understanding is a clear Zen-like template to see the world. I love standing   with him in that - it gives me a sense of the world less confused with   political positions.  I used to be very upset about all this, still am,   but as this organic unity emerges, and I feel this, see this, Know this   directly - I see the transformaitonal seeds being planted and growing.  
  I do not know a more precise presentation of reality   - than that of JL Moreno.  
  Best,  
  Edward Schreiber     

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