Structure versus reality II - Life as a 4 quadrant affair
Edward Schreiber
edwschreiber at earthlink.net
Tue Oct 14 09:00:35 CDT 2008
Putting sociatry into Ken Wilbur's framework is an interesting idea -
and yet - Moreno (for me at least) can stand alone.
The 'codes & formulas' are able to stand alone - and I would be happy
to present these to you Ivo when I am in Portugal.
Ed
On Oct 14, 2008, at 7:44 AM, Ivo Banaco wrote:
> A quick illustration of life as a four quadrant affair:
>
>
> Example: Ed's uncle plight
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______
>
> Subjective
> Objective
>
> - Ed's uncle feelings, emotions, thoughts; -
> Neurophysiological correlations of the subjective experience
>
>
>
> - Edward Schreiber individual
> perspective -The
> objective event itself
>
>
> - The concrete behavioural
>
> responses to the event
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ______
>
> Intersubjective
> Interobjective
>
> - Ed's uncle intersubjective
> environment -US
> social security structure
> - Financial crisis
> - The sociometric relationships and status
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______
>
>
> Ken Wilber would say that any response to this issue without
> addressing this four fundamental perspectives would be dangerously
> reductionist. Economics - The dismal science - tends to built
> models and understand the economical life reducing all perspectives
> to the lower left quadrant, making rather poor assumptions
> (consciously and unconsciously) about the other 3 fundamental
> perspectives. For instance, the assumption about some rational man
> (no emotions, no intersubjective relationships, no culture). Also
> taking subjective or intersubjective interpretations without taking
> to account the underlying objective structures is also part of the
> problem of reductionism. After all we all born in an already
> created world and the objective structures are indeed very powerful.
>
> Ken Wilber talks of the need of an integral approach that makes an
> effort to embrace all perspectives. But this is only a framework, a
> meta theory, it is not the action method itself. So any attempt to
> compare Moreno to Ken Wilber is misleading in this regard.
>
> My intuitive perception about Sociatry methods is that they could
> put into practice this framework. But I also want to know something
> more specific about that...Ed?
>
> Ivo
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 7:02 AM, Edward Schreiber
> <edwschreiber at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Dear Anath,
> Thanks for your (much more than) 2 cents contribution.
> I feel that in clear and precise terms you have given a profound
> and clear understanding of JL Morero's METHOD OF SEEING AND KNOWING
> what the world, these structures, and the solution - is all about.
> I am not a student of the Kaballah but I know Moreno was. I know
> that from Zerka.
> And I suspect there is much, very much in the teachings of the
> Kaballah that will assist and help us to further refine our
> understanding of Moreno's method. He drew his inspiration from the
> great spiritual traditions, rather than biology - his method is a
> spiritual tradition, a path of awakening really. What else could
> it be? It invokes (and in fact provokes) the Godhead to show
> ITSELF to a group, it invites that emergence within the organism of
> the individual, and sociometry reveals the telic connections which
> when used with a Sociatric consciousness, reverses the sociodynamic
> effect in a small group, and then the Organic Unity emerges, moves
> people to a Unity. What more can we ask for! We have a method
> that is as sacred as any religious or spiritual tradition - and it
> belongs to humanity now! Much much much thanks for your 2 Million
> (vs. 2 cents) contribution! Ed
>
> On Oct 13, 2008, at 11:00 PM, thana ag wrote:
>
>> Dear Adam,Ed and all,
>>
>> Adam:To say that Moreno found objective reality underlying all
>> relations is extremely problematic. He noticed that rapport is an
>> important dynamic that is worth attending to. This is no small
>> contribution! I honor him for it and think this angle has yet to
>> be fully developed.
>>
>> Anath: perhaps a way to reconcile the statement that Moreno found
>> an objective reality underlying all relations,by noticing that
>> rapport ."tele" ,,is an underlying dynamic universally present -:
>> would be to point out that if we consciously develop this "telic
>> ability" and will resonate empathically with others,indeed we
>> will discern a whole new underlying reality
>> . Kabalah points out that there is where our evolution as species
>> is headed,or else worse disasters than current ones,a result of
>> human greed etc will befall us.It will necessitate us to
>> "discover" our underlying unity,or whatever name we want to call
>> it, and act accordingly. .But can we say that that universe
>> existed before and by developing the "empathy" we were able to
>> discern it,or that we co created it through our experience.?
>> .
>> Here is my 2cents contribution
>> anath
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: ablatner at verizon.net
>> To: edwschreiber at earthlink.net
>> Subject: structure versus reality
>> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:34:44 -0500
>> CC: list at grouptalkweb.org
>>
>> Dear Ed and all,
>> We must differentiate structure and reality. At a certain
>> level of philosophy, word meanings are not to be easily discounted
>> as mere quibbling.
>>
>> I tend to hold with Ken Wilber's 4-quadrant view of reality
>> that includes as real---not more or less real, but to be balanced in:
>> 1. Interior subjectivity 2. Inter-subjectivity, the
>> "we," what we create and agree to; 3. Exterior objectivity---
>> cells, brains, physical buildings, planets
>> and 4. Objective collectivities: Associations, organizations,
>> tribes. All exist, interpenetrate, influence each other and
>> themselves at different levels.
>>
>> So my comment on structure invites us to differentiate
>> between physical structure---actual threads in the spider web---
>> and realms of mind and society--- which, because of their many
>> frames of reference and dimensions (humor, politics, economics,
>> literature, drama, therapy, etc.) cannot have a clear structure.
>> We may discern models to which we assign metaphors, seeming
>> structures, but close inspection shows areas of blurring, overlap,
>> and contexts in which our model doesn't adequately work.
>>
>> So I don't deny external reality or circumstances. I do call
>> into question our interpretations of these (quadrant numbers 1 and
>> 2, and a little number 4) , as these may shift with viewpoint and
>> history, for example. They may be useful---our imagined
>> structures--- but they are still mental co-creations...
>>
>> To say that Moreno found objective reality underlying all
>> relations is extremely problematic. He noticed that rapport is an
>> important dynamic that is worth attending to. This is no small
>> contribution! I honor him for it and think this angle has yet to
>> be fully developed.
>>
>> Now the uncle example and money---ah, money! Money is such a
>> good example of the overlap between quadrants 2 and 4, especially:
>> the intersubjective (what you and I think something is worth) and
>> the collective (what "they" think it's worth, and how it gets
>> measured, negotiated, exchanged---the whole ambiguous realm of
>> economics.)
>> One reason economics has been called the dismal science is
>> that fixed structures that apply to all contexts are hard to pin
>> down and get general consensus. Often they betray underlying
>> political biases. There are some more resilient principles, some
>> less so--- are there any structures in the general realms of
>> economics? Debatable.
>> (Even the structured packages that contain problematic
>> mortgages are structures only of current laws, regulations,
>> standards, expectations, and so forth.)
>>
>> To think that slapping a label of the SDE (sociodynamic
>> effect) on it adequately or even partially explains anything ---
>> well, maybe it does, but as yet I haven't seen a cogent
>> explanation. (Nor does the label of schizophrenia explain the
>> complex and still mysterious phenomena attending that condition.)
>> Labels don't explain that much.
>>
>> Ed, I appreciate your enthusiasm. And perhaps you really see
>> more specifics in among your generalities than I have been able to
>> discern. But until these are pointed out, well, I have difficulty
>> appreciating Moreno's writings as more than general envisionings
>> in directions that (for the most part) evoke my sympathy.
>>
>> Sorry to hear about your uncle's plight, by the way. I fear
>> we may hear many more stories like this as various relatives and
>> friends begin to share their stories. He's lucky to have a caring
>> nephew.
>>
>> Warmly, Adam
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Edward Schreiber
>> To: Grouptalk Listserv
>> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 2:30 PM
>> Subject: What is Real?
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> Sorry for a delay in responding to this thread of emails, a worthy
>> conversation for sure. I had some family issues - an 89 year old
>> Uncle ran out of money in the collapse of the economy - and so
>> family had to be brought together. I want to respond to Adam
>> Blatner's comments:
>>
>> AB: "This dialectical tension between two ideas is also present in
>> Moreno's claim that society "has" a structure. There is no out-
>> there objective structure, and one might well argue (as have a
>> number of philosophers, at length) that it is misleading to
>> imagine that objectivity is a sufficient way of thinking about
>> reality---it denies our co-creative structuring of reality via our
>> own consciousness!"
>>
>> "The political implications are that we must resist becoming over-
>> inflated and grandiose (and resist unconsciously imitating
>> Moreno), but rather we should explore ways we can implement
>> various models and create new ones."
>>
>>
>> "The problems with some of these concepts is that they generate
>> great ambition while delivering elusive actual methods (except
>> those that which can be used by individuals and in small groups
>> of willing and educated participants)."
>>
>>
>> I agree that there is a subject nature to what we each experience
>> as real. This subjectivity is what we bring to our work and our
>> lives. To suggest that there is "no out-there objective
>> structure" is a bit concerning. The objective structure for me
>> this last week was that Uncle E., in New Rochelle NY has social
>> security income that is 1/3 of his present expenses. This income
>> was supported with dividends from stocks that Seniors (once) felt
>> would help them in their final years of their lives. Not the case
>> for the working poor. The task, in my experience with it all, is
>> to tease out my subjective response to these objective realities.
>> The quick-melt of the polar caps is an objective reality. The
>> fact that in one week an 89 year old writer living alone in New
>> York State found his life's savings gone - is both objective and
>> subjective. The world and its structures are real. Our
>> subjective realities - in response to the world - impact our own
>> physiological, biological, spiritual, emotional realities.
>>
>> The fact that J.L. Moreno FOUND objective reality underlying and
>> determining all groups, all systems, all societies - has led me to
>> pierce my own subjective reaction, to highten my consciousness
>> ---- and yes ---- to determine a course of action. In years past,
>> as a social scientist my concern was on the systems in collapse of
>> the natural world. At first the dying bee population REALLY
>> caught my attention, as have the polar shifts, polar melts, polar
>> bears, changing climates, fires in California, draughts in Africa,
>> and the vanished clean water in many places around the Globe.
>>
>> Dr. Moreno's writings (in almost all his works) have pointed to
>> this objective reality of human civilization, the sociodynamic
>> effect. The long awakening of seeing this objective reality has
>> been for me as for most of us, been experience and observed,
>> witnessed and experienced through the filters that our subjective
>> minds have formed as a way to make meaning to this objective reality.
>>
>> I just do buy the notion that subjectivity is real and objective
>> reality is not. The sociodynamic effect is everywhere. Where
>> did my Uncle's 285. dollars vanish to? Did it just evaporate?
>> Did it, this sum, find its way to a black hole? Sure, the value
>> of "a stock" became of less value - and of course I and all my
>> family have had subjective reactions - but this sucking of
>> resources away from the many is not only subjective, it is real -
>> it is in the world - it is the nature of the civilization in which
>> we are living.
>>
>> On the other side of this same coin is the potential to "co-
>> create" something new. That I fully agree - but new in what way?
>> To see the world through the lens of the sociodynamic effect has
>> made objective reality clearer - less muddied with overlays of
>> explanation that in the end simply explain away this sociodynamic
>> effect. We are at a great moment in humanity's history, don't you
>> think? For most of humanity's short stay, the sociodynamic effect
>> impacted all social groupings, all nations - emerging in cultures,
>> histories, conflicts, and peace. The reversal of the sociodynamic
>> effect the same.
>>
>> The nature of the Organic Unity of Humanity (connected to the
>> Source animating every sentient life) is another reality,
>> seemingly throughout history. Jesus, Gandhi,
>> Martin Luther King, Lincoln, on and on - were sociometrists
>> bringing forward "A New Earth" (as Eckhardt Tolle notes) but now
>> we, humanity, are in the end stage of the sociodynamic effect with
>> nature and the earth itself, or at least that is what some of the
>> enviornmental sciences suggest. For example, how can 3 percent of
>> the human family use 28 percent of all the resources? Can we
>> sustain this? At whose expense? Those stripped of resources,
>> will they survive?
>>
>> The point is, for me, JL Moreno's GRANDIOSE understanding is a
>> clear Zen-like template to see the world. I love standing with him
>> in that - it gives me a sense of the world less confused with
>> political positions. I used to be very upset about all this,
>> still am, but as this organic unity emerges, and I feel this, see
>> this, Know this directly - I see the transformaitonal seeds being
>> planted and growing.
>>
>> I do not know a more precise presentation of reality - than that
>> of JL Moreno.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Edward Schreiber
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Grouptalk mailing list
>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1722 - Release Date:
>> 10/13/2008 7:50 AM
>>
>> Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with
>> Windows Live. See Now
>> Grouptalk mailing list
>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>
>
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at grouptalkweb.org
> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grouptalkweb.org/pipermail/list_grouptalkweb.org/attachments/20081014/6c728998/attachment.html>
More information about the List
mailing list