structure versus reality

Mon Oct 13 22:00:39 CDT 2008

Dear Adam,Ed and all,

Adam:To say that Moreno found 
objective reality underlying all relations is extremely problematic. He noticed 
that rapport is an important dynamic that is worth attending to. This is no 
small contribution! I honor him for it and think this angle has yet to be fully 
developed.

Anath: perhaps a way to reconcile the statement that Moreno found an objective reality underlying all relations,by noticing that rapport ."tele" ,,is an underlying dynamic universally present -: would be to point out that if we consciously develop this  "telic ability"  and will resonate empathically with others,indeed we will discern a whole new underlying reality
. Kabalah points out that there is where our evolution as species is headed,or else worse disasters than current ones,a result of human greed etc will befall us.It will necessitate us to "discover" our underlying unity,or whatever name we want to call it, and act accordingly. .But can we say that that universe existed before and by developing the "empathy" we were able to  discern it,or that we  co created it through our experience.?
. 
Here is my 2cents contribution
anath 

From: ablatner at verizon.net
To: edwschreiber at earthlink.net
Subject: structure versus reality
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:34:44 -0500
CC: list at grouptalkweb.org

Dear Ed and all, 
       We must 
differentiate structure and reality. At a certain level of 
philosophy, word meanings are not to be easily discounted as mere 
quibbling.

    I tend to hold with Ken Wilber's 
4-quadrant view of reality that includes as real---not more or less real, but to 
be balanced in: 
          1. Interior 
subjectivity    2. Inter-subjectivity, the "we," what we create 
and agree to;  3. Exterior objectivity--- cells, brains, physical 
buildings, planets
    and 4. Objective collectivities: 
Associations, organizations, tribes.   All exist, interpenetrate, 
influence each other and themselves at different levels.

      So my comment on 
structure invites us to differentiate between physical structure---actual 
threads in the spider web--- and realms of mind and society--- which, because of 
their many frames of reference and dimensions (humor, politics, economics, 
literature, drama, therapy, etc.) cannot have a clear 
structure. 
       We may discern 
models to which we assign metaphors, seeming structures, but close inspection 
shows areas of blurring, overlap, and contexts in which our model doesn't 
adequately work. 

      So I don't deny 
external reality or circumstances. I do call into question our 
interpretations of these (quadrant numbers 1 and 2, and a little number 
4) , as these may shift with viewpoint and history, for example. They may be 
useful---our imagined structures--- but they are still mental co-creations... 

     To say that Moreno found 
objective reality underlying all relations is extremely problematic. He noticed 
that rapport is an important dynamic that is worth attending to. This is no 
small contribution! I honor him for it and think this angle has yet to be fully 
developed. 

    Now the uncle example and 
money---ah, money!  Money is such a good example of the overlap between 
quadrants 2 and 4, especially: the intersubjective (what you and I think 
something is worth) and the collective (what "they" think it's worth, and how it 
gets measured, negotiated, exchanged---the whole ambiguous realm of 
economics.)
        One 
reason economics has been called the dismal science is that fixed structures 
that apply to all contexts are hard to pin down and get general consensus. Often 
they betray underlying political biases. There are some more resilient 
principles, some less so--- are there any structures in the general realms of 
economics? Debatable. 
           (Even the 
structured packages that contain problematic mortgages are structures only of 
current laws, regulations, standards, expectations, and so forth.)

      To think that 
slapping a label of the SDE (sociodynamic effect) on it adequately or even 
partially explains anything --- well, maybe it does, but as yet I haven't seen a 
cogent explanation. (Nor does the label of schizophrenia explain the complex and 
still mysterious phenomena attending that condition.)  Labels don't explain 
that much. 

      Ed, I appreciate 
your enthusiasm. And perhaps you really see more specifics in among your 
generalities than I have been able to discern. But until these are pointed out, 
well, I have difficulty appreciating Moreno's writings as more than general 
envisionings in directions that (for the most part) evoke my 
sympathy.

      Sorry to hear 
about your uncle's plight, by the way. I fear we may hear many more stories like 
this as various relatives and friends begin to share their stories. He's lucky 
to have a caring nephew.

Warmly, Adam

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  Edward Schreiber 
  To: Grouptalk Listserv 
  Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 2:30 
  PM
  Subject: What is Real?

  Dear 
  Colleagues,

  Sorry for a delay in responding 
  to this thread of emails, a worthy conversation for sure.  I had some 
  family issues - an 89 year old Uncle ran out of money in the collapse of the 
  economy - and so family had to be brought together.   I want to respond 
  to Adam Blatner's comments:

  AB: "This dialectical tension 
  between two ideas is also present in Moreno's claim that society "has" a 
  structure. There is no out-there objective structure, and one might well argue 
  (as have a number of philosophers, at length) that it is misleading to imagine 
  that objectivity is a sufficient way of thinking about reality---it denies our 
  co-creative structuring of reality via our own 
  consciousness!" 

  "The 
  political implications are that we must resist becoming over-inflated and 
  grandiose (and resist unconsciously imitating Moreno), but rather we should 
  explore ways we can implement various models and create new 
ones."

  "The 
  problems with some of these concepts is that they generate great ambition 
  while delivering elusive actual methods (except those that which can be used 
  by individuals and in small groups of willing and educated 
  participants)." 

  I agree that there is a subject nature to what we 
  each experience as real.  This subjectivity is what we bring to our work 
  and our lives.  To suggest that there is "no out-there objective 
  structure" is a bit concerning.  The objective structure for me this last 
  week was that Uncle E., in New Rochelle NY has social security income that is 
  1/3 of his present expenses.  This income was supported with dividends 
  from stocks that Seniors (once) felt would help them in their final years of 
  their lives.  Not the case for the working poor.  The task, in my 
  experience with it all, is to tease out my subjective response to these 
  objective realities.  The quick-melt of the polar caps is an objective 
  reality.  The fact that in one week an 89 year old writer living alone in 
  New York State found his life's savings gone - is both objective and 
  subjective.  The world and its structures are real.  Our subjective 
  realities - in response to the world - impact our own physiological, 
  biological, spiritual, emotional realities.  

  The fact that J.L. Moreno FOUND objective reality 
  underlying and determining all groups, all systems, all societies - has led me 
  to pierce my own subjective reaction, to highten my consciousness ---- and yes 
  ---- to determine a course of action.  In years past, as a social 
  scientist my concern was on the systems in collapse of the natural world. 
   At first the dying bee population REALLY caught my attention, as have 
  the polar shifts, polar melts, polar bears, changing climates, fires in 
  California, draughts in Africa, and the vanished clean water in many places 
  around the Globe.

  Dr. Moreno's writings (in almost all his works) have 
  pointed to this objective reality of human civilization, the sociodynamic 
  effect.  The long awakening of seeing this objective reality has been for 
  me as for most of us, been experience and observed, witnessed and experienced 
  through the filters that our subjective minds have formed as a way to make 
  meaning to this objective reality.  

  I just do buy the notion that subjectivity is real 
  and objective reality is  not.  The sociodynamic effect is 
  everywhere.  Where did my Uncle's 285. dollars vanish to?  Did it 
  just evaporate?  Did it, this sum, find its way to a black hole? 
   Sure, the value of "a stock" became of less value - and of course I and 
  all my family have had subjective reactions - but this sucking of resources 
  away from the many is not only subjective, it is real - it is in the world - 
  it is the nature of the civilization in which we are living.

  On the other side of this same coin is the potential 
  to "co-create" something new.  That I fully agree - but new in what way? 
   To see the world through the lens of the sociodynamic effect has made 
  objective reality clearer - less muddied with overlays of explanation that in 
  the end simply explain away this sociodynamic effect.  We are at a great 
  moment in humanity's history, don't you think?  For most of humanity's 
  short stay, the sociodynamic effect impacted all social groupings, all nations 
  - emerging in cultures, histories, conflicts, and peace.  The reversal of 
  the sociodynamic effect the same.  

  The nature of the Organic Unity of Humanity 
  (connected to the Source animating every sentient life) is another reality, 
  seemingly throughout history. Jesus, Gandhi, 
  Martin Luther King, Lincoln, on and on - were 
  sociometrists bringing forward "A New Earth" (as Eckhardt Tolle notes) but now 
  we, humanity, are in the end stage of the sociodynamic effect with nature and 
  the earth itself, or at least that is what some of the enviornmental sciences 
  suggest.  For example, how can 3 percent of the human family use 28 
  percent of all the resources?  Can we sustain this?  At whose 
  expense?  Those stripped of resources, will they survive?  

  The point is, for me, JL Moreno's GRANDIOSE 
  understanding is a clear Zen-like template to see the world. I love standing 
  with him in that - it gives me a sense of the world less confused with 
  political positions.  I used to be very upset about all this, still am, 
  but as this organic unity emerges, and I feel this, see this, Know this 
  directly - I see the transformaitonal seeds being planted and growing.

  I do not know a more precise presentation of reality 
  - than that of JL Moreno.

  Best,

  Edward Schreiber

  Grouptalk mailing 
  list
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