List Digest, Vol 29, Issue 19
Adam Blatner
ablatner at verizon.net
Sat Nov 22 10:02:43 CST 2008
Yeah, well, someone try to locate her. Last seen I think in Maryland area, disenchanted
with the politics of the Board or the ASGPP. Alas. I think she went to Europe for a while,
too.
She may have some copies.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Linda Ciotola" <vegmom at closecall.com>
To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 12:40 PM
Subject: RE: List Digest, Vol 29, Issue 19
> Re: Sociometry of Training : as a PAT and someone who just took the TEP
> written and has scheduled the on-site, I want to say that I'd love to see
> the manual that Edie developed, the check-lists used by Kate and others
> and the Toronto Center's,too, as well as Rebecca's and anyone else willing
> to share from their experience and wisdom . You may contact me via
> vegmom at closecall.com Many thanks, Linda Ciotola
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org [mailto:list-bounces at grouptalkweb.org]
> On Behalf Of list-request at grouptalkweb.org
> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 1:00 PM
> To: list at grouptalkweb.org
> Subject: List Digest, Vol 29, Issue 19
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: sociometry of association elections (drkatetsi at mac.com)
> 2. sociometry of training (Adam Blatner)
> 3. Re: sociometry of training (PATRICIA DESERT)
> 4. Re: sociometry of training (HV Psychodrama)
> 5. Re: sociometry of training (Adam Blatner)
> 6. Re: sociometry of training (HV Psychodrama)
> 7. Federation of Trainers (Adam Blatner)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:31:39 +0000
> From: drkatetsi at mac.com
> Subject: Re: sociometry of association elections
> To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>, list at grouptalkweb.org
> Message-ID:
>
> <1363107931-1227216832-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1275730808-@
> bxe137.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Hey adam
>
> Given that I just returned fr 6 weeks work in china I don't even know who is
> running as I haven't gotten to my mail yet....but I thought ur email
> interesting.
>
> Zerka often talks about how the promise of sociometry has not been fulfilled
> and is often overlooked. So I hope ur questions do stimulate some thoughts
> and discussion.
>
> For sure I see sociometry at work in china. It is called guan
> xi......getting something based on your relationship connections. And has
> powerful implications given the government there as well.
>
> I am glad my training program is so clearly based on behavioural achievement
> of hands on skills from checklists people get after each time they are on a
> team. As there have been many pulls to pass people based on relationship
> that I have been able to resist by returning to the checklists.
>
> Tx as always for bringing up the risky topics! Kate
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adam Blatner <ablatner at verizon.net>
>
> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:33:36
> To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Subject: sociometry of association elections
>
>
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at grouptalkweb.org
> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:20:57 -0600
> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
> Subject: sociometry of training
> To: <drkatetsi at mac.com>, <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Message-ID: <85148A5FD6D24862A0BCFE374C8909E5 at desktop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Kate Hudgins brings up another point that I want to echo.
>
> 1. She notes "...the way sociometry at work in China. It is called guan
> xi......getting
> something based on your relationship connections."
>
> 2. Notes also that her training is measured by check-lists! Their
> supervisors assess
> hands-on skills according to these lists "...people get after each time they
> are on a
> team. As there have been many pulls to pass people based on relationship
> that I have been
> able to resist by returning to the checklists."
> Wow! Now that I've thought of this, and the workshops I've done, some
> training
> activities, there has been a range of taking-responsibility an demonstration
> of
> competence" for which there are few built-in indicators or feedback. People
> just
> accumulate "hours," but with what quality participation? Mere attendance
> should not be the
> only criterion.
>
> It is a risky topic indeed. Warmly, Adam
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:23:05 -0500
> From: "PATRICIA DESERT" <honeybwomn at msn.com>
> Subject: Re: sociometry of training
> To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>, <drkatetsi at mac.com>,
> <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY103-DS2AD886FD71D3E600CE7CEC90C0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Yes, I agree with Kate. Not only as a clinical supervisor and a therapist
> but as a former trainee I can say that behavioral objectives keep it clear
> for everyone. Patti
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Adam Blatner<mailto:ablatner at verizon.net>
> To: drkatetsi at mac.com<mailto:drkatetsi at mac.com> ;
> list at grouptalkweb.org<mailto:list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:20 PM
> Subject: sociometry of training
>
>
> Kate Hudgins brings up another point that I want to echo.
>
> 1. She notes "...the way sociometry at work in China. It is called guan
> xi......getting
> something based on your relationship connections."
>
> 2. Notes also that her training is measured by check-lists! Their
> supervisors assess
> hands-on skills according to these lists "...people get after each time
> they are on a
> team. As there have been many pulls to pass people based on relationship
> that I have been
> able to resist by returning to the checklists."
> Wow! Now that I've thought of this, and the workshops I've done, some
> training
> activities, there has been a range of taking-responsibility an
> demonstration of
> competence" for which there are few built-in indicators or feedback.
> People just
> accumulate "hours," but with what quality participation? Mere attendance
> should not be the
> only criterion.
>
> It is a risky topic indeed. Warmly, Adam
>
>
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at grouptalkweb.org<mailto:List at grouptalkweb.org>
>
> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org<http://groupt
> alkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:30:49 -0500
> From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: sociometry of training
> To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>, <drkatetsi at mac.com>,
> <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Message-ID: <C0AAD924CF0B4C72A0724E057010FEF9 at Rebecca2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> The Toronto Center has a very elaborate check list of specific skills and
> experiences. Hudson Valley Psychodrama Institute has a less elaborate check
> list, but we do require students to show that they have attained a certain
> competency in basic skills and once a student has had a couple of hundred
> hours we meet with them to discuss their strengths and challenges, and what
> they might need to do to meet criteria for endorsement. I suspect that that
> is true of most ongoing programs. It can't even just be about hours as the
> primary trainer must endorse the student based on clear criteria set out by
> the American Board of examiners..
> Rebecca
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
> To: <drkatetsi at mac.com>; <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:20 PM
> Subject: sociometry of training
>
>
>> Kate Hudgins brings up another point that I want to echo.
>>
>> 1. She notes "...the way sociometry at work in China. It is called guan
>> xi......getting something based on your relationship connections."
>>
>> 2. Notes also that her training is measured by check-lists! Their
>> supervisors assess hands-on skills according to these lists "...people get
>
>> after each time they are on a team. As there have been many pulls to pass
>
>> people based on relationship that I have been able to resist by returning
>> to the checklists."
>> Wow! Now that I've thought of this, and the workshops I've done, some
>> training activities, there has been a range of taking-responsibility an
>> demonstration of competence" for which there are few built-in indicators
>> or feedback. People just accumulate "hours," but with what quality
>> participation? Mere attendance should not be the only criterion.
>>
>> It is a risky topic indeed. Warmly, Adam
>>
>> Grouptalk mailing list
>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:21:11 -0600
> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: sociometry of training
> To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Message-ID: <B33403E3987E4E0C8819333EAEAC266A at desktop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> In the 1970s, I think the St. Elizabeth's Hospital (Washington DC)
> Psychodrama Program
> created a syllabus for training---of sorts.
> In the 1980s, Evie Lotze created a 3-volume training manual.
> Eventually, it might be possible to create one that had the input of
> a number of
> active trainers, reflected a degree of consensus, and might in turn be used
> for new TEPs
> as an aid in their work.
> Hm?
> The ol' "pooling of different efforts" game?
>
> The reason I don't do it is that I am not active as a trainer
> now. It should
> be done by folks who encounter the most common problems in training! What do
> trainers find
> themselves dealing with that makes them sweat a little?
> (Anyone can handle the easy stuff. As I saw at a tailor's shop: "Our
> difficult
> customers are the ones that make us earn our money. Otherwise the guy down
> the block could
> do the job at half the work and half the price.")
>
> warmly, Adam
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
> To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>; <drkatetsi at mac.com>;
> <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:30 PM
> Subject: Re: sociometry of training
>
>
>> The Toronto Center has a very elaborate check list of specific skills and
>> experiences. Hudson Valley Psychodrama Institute has a less elaborate
> check
>> list, but we do require students to show that they have attained a certain
>> competency in basic skills and once a student has had a couple of hundred
>> hours we meet with them to discuss their strengths and challenges, and
> what
>> they might need to do to meet criteria for endorsement. I suspect that
> that
>> is true of most ongoing programs. It can't even just be about hours as the
>> primary trainer must endorse the student based on clear criteria set out
> by
>> the American Board of examiners..
>> Rebecca
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
>> To: <drkatetsi at mac.com>; <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:20 PM
>> Subject: sociometry of training
>>
>>
>>> Kate Hudgins brings up another point that I want to echo.
>>>
>>> 1. She notes "...the way sociometry at work in China. It is called guan
>>> xi......getting something based on your relationship connections."
>>>
>>> 2. Notes also that her training is measured by check-lists! Their
>>> supervisors assess hands-on skills according to these lists "...people
> get
>>> after each time they are on a team. As there have been many pulls to
> pass
>>> people based on relationship that I have been able to resist by returning
>>> to the checklists."
>>> Wow! Now that I've thought of this, and the workshops I've done, some
>>> training activities, there has been a range of taking-responsibility an
>>> demonstration of competence" for which there are few built-in indicators
>>> or feedback. People just accumulate "hours," but with what quality
>>> participation? Mere attendance should not be the only criterion.
>>>
>>> It is a risky topic indeed. Warmly, Adam
>>>
>>> Grouptalk mailing list
>>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.8/1800 - Release Date: 11/19/2008
> 6:55 PM
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:41:57 -0500
> From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: sociometry of training
> To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>, <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Message-ID: <77D5C406F90344A8A3517A9DC895F535 at Rebecca2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> I think at one time, before I was a trainer, there was an attempt to have a
> federation of trainers and one goal was to have a common curriculum. I think
>
> this would be a terrific idea...but I know from students who attend our
> directing intensives, ones who come from training programs all over the
> country, that many trainers still train by directing psychodramas with very
> little actual teaching and very little practicing directing skills. I
> imagine these different styles of training would prevent there being a
> consensus about what competencies are basic skills. But it is an awfully
> interesting idea.
> Rebecca
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
> To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:21 PM
> Subject: Re: sociometry of training
>
>
>> In the 1970s, I think the St. Elizabeth's Hospital (Washington DC)
>> Psychodrama Program created a syllabus for training---of sorts.
>> In the 1980s, Evie Lotze created a 3-volume training manual.
>> Eventually, it might be possible to create one that had the input of
>
>> a number of active trainers, reflected a degree of consensus, and might in
>
>> turn be used for new TEPs as an aid in their work.
>> Hm?
>> The ol' "pooling of different efforts" game?
>>
>> The reason I don't do it is that I am not active as a trainer
>> now. It should be done by folks who encounter the most common problems in
>> training! What do trainers find themselves dealing with that makes them
>> sweat a little?
>> (Anyone can handle the easy stuff. As I saw at a tailor's shop: "Our
>> difficult customers are the ones that make us earn our money. Otherwise
>> the guy down the block could do the job at half the work and half the
>> price.")
>>
>> warmly, Adam
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
>> To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>; <drkatetsi at mac.com>;
>> <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: sociometry of training
>>
>>
>>> The Toronto Center has a very elaborate check list of specific skills and
>>> experiences. Hudson Valley Psychodrama Institute has a less elaborate
>>> check
>>> list, but we do require students to show that they have attained a
>>> certain
>>> competency in basic skills and once a student has had a couple of hundred
>>> hours we meet with them to discuss their strengths and challenges, and
>>> what
>>> they might need to do to meet criteria for endorsement. I suspect that
>>> that
>>> is true of most ongoing programs. It can't even just be about hours as
>>> the
>>> primary trainer must endorse the student based on clear criteria set out
>>> by
>>> the American Board of examiners..
>>> Rebecca
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
>>> To: <drkatetsi at mac.com>; <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:20 PM
>>> Subject: sociometry of training
>>>
>>>
>>>> Kate Hudgins brings up another point that I want to echo.
>>>>
>>>> 1. She notes "...the way sociometry at work in China. It is called guan
>>>> xi......getting something based on your relationship connections."
>>>>
>>>> 2. Notes also that her training is measured by check-lists! Their
>>>> supervisors assess hands-on skills according to these lists "...people
>>>> get
>>>> after each time they are on a team. As there have been many pulls to
>>>> pass
>>>> people based on relationship that I have been able to resist by
>>>> returning
>>>> to the checklists."
>>>> Wow! Now that I've thought of this, and the workshops I've done, some
>>>> training activities, there has been a range of taking-responsibility an
>>>> demonstration of competence" for which there are few built-in indicators
>>>> or feedback. People just accumulate "hours," but with what quality
>>>> participation? Mere attendance should not be the only criterion.
>>>>
>>>> It is a risky topic indeed. Warmly, Adam
>>>>
>>>> Grouptalk mailing list
>>>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>>>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.8/1800 - Release Date: 11/19/2008
>
>> 6:55 PM
>>
>>
>> Grouptalk mailing list
>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:19:51 -0600
> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
> Subject: Federation of Trainers
> To: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>, <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Message-ID: <BC6FC027863D49ACA5F9AFC088AFB144 at desktop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Yes, the Federation operated from around 1979 through 1987 or thereabouts. A
> survey of
> members indicated that it had become a little too expensive to try to have
> another meeting
> apart from the ASGPP conference. Whatever feelings of possible conflicts of
> interest among
> the ASGPP, the newly-hatched American Board of Examiners, and the Trainers
> seemed to have
> been melted. The meetings of the Federation of Trainers and Training
> Programs in
> Psychodrama (FOTATPIP) had become more like an ASGPP conference.
> The group cohesion, though cordial, wasn't enough to tackle such
> tasks as
> --- definitions (I don't remember if that theme had come
> up at that
> point)
> -- check list or common training curriculum or manual (I
> think that is
> what stimulated Evie Lotze, but that was a little later)
> etc.
>
> As institutions mature, Board Members of the ABExaminers might want
> to survey and
> consider such measures.
>
> It's a good question. Input from the FEPTO (European organization)
> might be
> useful.
>
> Warmly, Adam
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
> To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>; <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: sociometry of training
>
>
>>I think at one time, before I was a trainer, there was an attempt to have a
>> federation of trainers and one goal was to have a common curriculum. I
> think
>> this would be a terrific idea...but I know from students who attend our
>> directing intensives, ones who come from training programs all over the
>> country, that many trainers still train by directing psychodramas with
> very
>> little actual teaching and very little practicing directing skills. I
>> imagine these different styles of training would prevent there being a
>> consensus about what competencies are basic skills. But it is an awfully
>> interesting idea.
>> Rebecca
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
>> To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: sociometry of training
>>
>>
>>> In the 1970s, I think the St. Elizabeth's Hospital (Washington DC)
>>> Psychodrama Program created a syllabus for training---of sorts.
>>> In the 1980s, Evie Lotze created a 3-volume training manual.
>>> Eventually, it might be possible to create one that had the input
> of
>>> a number of active trainers, reflected a degree of consensus, and might
> in
>>> turn be used for new TEPs as an aid in their work.
>>> Hm?
>>> The ol' "pooling of different efforts" game?
>>>
>>> The reason I don't do it is that I am not active as a trainer
>>> now. It should be done by folks who encounter the most common problems in
>>> training! What do trainers find themselves dealing with that makes them
>>> sweat a little?
>>> (Anyone can handle the easy stuff. As I saw at a tailor's shop: "Our
>>> difficult customers are the ones that make us earn our money. Otherwise
>>> the guy down the block could do the job at half the work and half the
>>> price.")
>>>
>>> warmly, Adam
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
>>> To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>; <drkatetsi at mac.com>;
>>> <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: sociometry of training
>>>
>>>
>>>> The Toronto Center has a very elaborate check list of specific skills
> and
>>>> experiences. Hudson Valley Psychodrama Institute has a less elaborate
>>>> check
>>>> list, but we do require students to show that they have attained a
>>>> certain
>>>> competency in basic skills and once a student has had a couple of
> hundred
>>>> hours we meet with them to discuss their strengths and challenges, and
>>>> what
>>>> they might need to do to meet criteria for endorsement. I suspect that
>>>> that
>>>> is true of most ongoing programs. It can't even just be about hours as
>>>> the
>>>> primary trainer must endorse the student based on clear criteria set out
>>>> by
>>>> the American Board of examiners..
>>>> Rebecca
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
>>>> To: <drkatetsi at mac.com>; <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:20 PM
>>>> Subject: sociometry of training
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Kate Hudgins brings up another point that I want to echo.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. She notes "...the way sociometry at work in China. It is called
> guan
>>>>> xi......getting something based on your relationship connections."
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Notes also that her training is measured by check-lists! Their
>>>>> supervisors assess hands-on skills according to these lists "...people
>>>>> get
>>>>> after each time they are on a team. As there have been many pulls to
>>>>> pass
>>>>> people based on relationship that I have been able to resist by
>>>>> returning
>>>>> to the checklists."
>>>>> Wow! Now that I've thought of this, and the workshops I've done,
> some
>>>>> training activities, there has been a range of taking-responsibility an
>>>>> demonstration of competence" for which there are few built-in
> indicators
>>>>> or feedback. People just accumulate "hours," but with what quality
>>>>> participation? Mere attendance should not be the only criterion.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is a risky topic indeed. Warmly, Adam
>>>>>
>>>>> Grouptalk mailing list
>>>>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>>>>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.8/1800 - Release Date:
> 11/19/2008
>>> 6:55 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> Grouptalk mailing list
>>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.8/1800 - Release Date: 11/19/2008
> 6:55 PM
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at grouptalkweb.org
> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>
>
>
> End of List Digest, Vol 29, Issue 19
> ************************************
>
>
>
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> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
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