List Digest, Vol 29, Issue 19
Linda Ciotola
vegmom at closecall.com
Fri Nov 21 12:40:06 CST 2008
Re: Sociometry of Training : as a PAT and someone who just took the TEP
written and has scheduled the on-site, I want to say that I'd love to see
the manual that Edie developed, the check-lists used by Kate and others
and the Toronto Center's,too, as well as Rebecca's and anyone else willing
to share from their experience and wisdom . You may contact me via
vegmom at closecall.com Many thanks, Linda Ciotola
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: sociometry of association elections (drkatetsi at mac.com)
2. sociometry of training (Adam Blatner)
3. Re: sociometry of training (PATRICIA DESERT)
4. Re: sociometry of training (HV Psychodrama)
5. Re: sociometry of training (Adam Blatner)
6. Re: sociometry of training (HV Psychodrama)
7. Federation of Trainers (Adam Blatner)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:31:39 +0000
From: drkatetsi at mac.com
Subject: Re: sociometry of association elections
To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>, list at grouptalkweb.org
Message-ID:
<1363107931-1227216832-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1275730808-@
bxe137.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Content-Type: text/plain
Hey adam
Given that I just returned fr 6 weeks work in china I don't even know who is
running as I haven't gotten to my mail yet....but I thought ur email
interesting.
Zerka often talks about how the promise of sociometry has not been fulfilled
and is often overlooked. So I hope ur questions do stimulate some thoughts
and discussion.
For sure I see sociometry at work in china. It is called guan
xi......getting something based on your relationship connections. And has
powerful implications given the government there as well.
I am glad my training program is so clearly based on behavioural achievement
of hands on skills from checklists people get after each time they are on a
team. As there have been many pulls to pass people based on relationship
that I have been able to resist by returning to the checklists.
Tx as always for bringing up the risky topics! Kate
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Blatner <ablatner at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:33:36
To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
Subject: sociometry of association elections
Grouptalk mailing list
List at grouptalkweb.org
http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:20:57 -0600
From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
Subject: sociometry of training
To: <drkatetsi at mac.com>, <list at grouptalkweb.org>
Message-ID: <85148A5FD6D24862A0BCFE374C8909E5 at desktop>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Kate Hudgins brings up another point that I want to echo.
1. She notes "...the way sociometry at work in China. It is called guan
xi......getting
something based on your relationship connections."
2. Notes also that her training is measured by check-lists! Their
supervisors assess
hands-on skills according to these lists "...people get after each time they
are on a
team. As there have been many pulls to pass people based on relationship
that I have been
able to resist by returning to the checklists."
Wow! Now that I've thought of this, and the workshops I've done, some
training
activities, there has been a range of taking-responsibility an demonstration
of
competence" for which there are few built-in indicators or feedback. People
just
accumulate "hours," but with what quality participation? Mere attendance
should not be the
only criterion.
It is a risky topic indeed. Warmly, Adam
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:23:05 -0500
From: "PATRICIA DESERT" <honeybwomn at msn.com>
Subject: Re: sociometry of training
To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>, <drkatetsi at mac.com>,
<list at grouptalkweb.org>
Message-ID: <BAY103-DS2AD886FD71D3E600CE7CEC90C0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Yes, I agree with Kate. Not only as a clinical supervisor and a therapist
but as a former trainee I can say that behavioral objectives keep it clear
for everyone. Patti
----- Original Message -----
From: Adam Blatner<mailto:ablatner at verizon.net>
To: drkatetsi at mac.com<mailto:drkatetsi at mac.com> ;
list at grouptalkweb.org<mailto:list at grouptalkweb.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:20 PM
Subject: sociometry of training
Kate Hudgins brings up another point that I want to echo.
1. She notes "...the way sociometry at work in China. It is called guan
xi......getting
something based on your relationship connections."
2. Notes also that her training is measured by check-lists! Their
supervisors assess
hands-on skills according to these lists "...people get after each time
they are on a
team. As there have been many pulls to pass people based on relationship
that I have been
able to resist by returning to the checklists."
Wow! Now that I've thought of this, and the workshops I've done, some
training
activities, there has been a range of taking-responsibility an
demonstration of
competence" for which there are few built-in indicators or feedback.
People just
accumulate "hours," but with what quality participation? Mere attendance
should not be the
only criterion.
It is a risky topic indeed. Warmly, Adam
Grouptalk mailing list
List at grouptalkweb.org<mailto:List at grouptalkweb.org>
http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org<http://groupt
alkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org>
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:30:49 -0500
From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: sociometry of training
To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>, <drkatetsi at mac.com>,
<list at grouptalkweb.org>
Message-ID: <C0AAD924CF0B4C72A0724E057010FEF9 at Rebecca2>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
The Toronto Center has a very elaborate check list of specific skills and
experiences. Hudson Valley Psychodrama Institute has a less elaborate check
list, but we do require students to show that they have attained a certain
competency in basic skills and once a student has had a couple of hundred
hours we meet with them to discuss their strengths and challenges, and what
they might need to do to meet criteria for endorsement. I suspect that that
is true of most ongoing programs. It can't even just be about hours as the
primary trainer must endorse the student based on clear criteria set out by
the American Board of examiners..
Rebecca
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
To: <drkatetsi at mac.com>; <list at grouptalkweb.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:20 PM
Subject: sociometry of training
> Kate Hudgins brings up another point that I want to echo.
>
> 1. She notes "...the way sociometry at work in China. It is called guan
> xi......getting something based on your relationship connections."
>
> 2. Notes also that her training is measured by check-lists! Their
> supervisors assess hands-on skills according to these lists "...people get
> after each time they are on a team. As there have been many pulls to pass
> people based on relationship that I have been able to resist by returning
> to the checklists."
> Wow! Now that I've thought of this, and the workshops I've done, some
> training activities, there has been a range of taking-responsibility an
> demonstration of competence" for which there are few built-in indicators
> or feedback. People just accumulate "hours," but with what quality
> participation? Mere attendance should not be the only criterion.
>
> It is a risky topic indeed. Warmly, Adam
>
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at grouptalkweb.org
> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:21:11 -0600
From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: sociometry of training
To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
Message-ID: <B33403E3987E4E0C8819333EAEAC266A at desktop>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
In the 1970s, I think the St. Elizabeth's Hospital (Washington DC)
Psychodrama Program
created a syllabus for training---of sorts.
In the 1980s, Evie Lotze created a 3-volume training manual.
Eventually, it might be possible to create one that had the input of
a number of
active trainers, reflected a degree of consensus, and might in turn be used
for new TEPs
as an aid in their work.
Hm?
The ol' "pooling of different efforts" game?
The reason I don't do it is that I am not active as a trainer
now. It should
be done by folks who encounter the most common problems in training! What do
trainers find
themselves dealing with that makes them sweat a little?
(Anyone can handle the easy stuff. As I saw at a tailor's shop: "Our
difficult
customers are the ones that make us earn our money. Otherwise the guy down
the block could
do the job at half the work and half the price.")
warmly, Adam
----- Original Message -----
From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>; <drkatetsi at mac.com>;
<list at grouptalkweb.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: sociometry of training
> The Toronto Center has a very elaborate check list of specific skills and
> experiences. Hudson Valley Psychodrama Institute has a less elaborate
check
> list, but we do require students to show that they have attained a certain
> competency in basic skills and once a student has had a couple of hundred
> hours we meet with them to discuss their strengths and challenges, and
what
> they might need to do to meet criteria for endorsement. I suspect that
that
> is true of most ongoing programs. It can't even just be about hours as the
> primary trainer must endorse the student based on clear criteria set out
by
> the American Board of examiners..
> Rebecca
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
> To: <drkatetsi at mac.com>; <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:20 PM
> Subject: sociometry of training
>
>
>> Kate Hudgins brings up another point that I want to echo.
>>
>> 1. She notes "...the way sociometry at work in China. It is called guan
>> xi......getting something based on your relationship connections."
>>
>> 2. Notes also that her training is measured by check-lists! Their
>> supervisors assess hands-on skills according to these lists "...people
get
>> after each time they are on a team. As there have been many pulls to
pass
>> people based on relationship that I have been able to resist by returning
>> to the checklists."
>> Wow! Now that I've thought of this, and the workshops I've done, some
>> training activities, there has been a range of taking-responsibility an
>> demonstration of competence" for which there are few built-in indicators
>> or feedback. People just accumulate "hours," but with what quality
>> participation? Mere attendance should not be the only criterion.
>>
>> It is a risky topic indeed. Warmly, Adam
>>
>> Grouptalk mailing list
>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.8/1800 - Release Date: 11/19/2008
6:55 PM
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:41:57 -0500
From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: sociometry of training
To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>, <list at grouptalkweb.org>
Message-ID: <77D5C406F90344A8A3517A9DC895F535 at Rebecca2>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
I think at one time, before I was a trainer, there was an attempt to have a
federation of trainers and one goal was to have a common curriculum. I think
this would be a terrific idea...but I know from students who attend our
directing intensives, ones who come from training programs all over the
country, that many trainers still train by directing psychodramas with very
little actual teaching and very little practicing directing skills. I
imagine these different styles of training would prevent there being a
consensus about what competencies are basic skills. But it is an awfully
interesting idea.
Rebecca
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: sociometry of training
> In the 1970s, I think the St. Elizabeth's Hospital (Washington DC)
> Psychodrama Program created a syllabus for training---of sorts.
> In the 1980s, Evie Lotze created a 3-volume training manual.
> Eventually, it might be possible to create one that had the input of
> a number of active trainers, reflected a degree of consensus, and might in
> turn be used for new TEPs as an aid in their work.
> Hm?
> The ol' "pooling of different efforts" game?
>
> The reason I don't do it is that I am not active as a trainer
> now. It should be done by folks who encounter the most common problems in
> training! What do trainers find themselves dealing with that makes them
> sweat a little?
> (Anyone can handle the easy stuff. As I saw at a tailor's shop: "Our
> difficult customers are the ones that make us earn our money. Otherwise
> the guy down the block could do the job at half the work and half the
> price.")
>
> warmly, Adam
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
> To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>; <drkatetsi at mac.com>;
> <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:30 PM
> Subject: Re: sociometry of training
>
>
>> The Toronto Center has a very elaborate check list of specific skills and
>> experiences. Hudson Valley Psychodrama Institute has a less elaborate
>> check
>> list, but we do require students to show that they have attained a
>> certain
>> competency in basic skills and once a student has had a couple of hundred
>> hours we meet with them to discuss their strengths and challenges, and
>> what
>> they might need to do to meet criteria for endorsement. I suspect that
>> that
>> is true of most ongoing programs. It can't even just be about hours as
>> the
>> primary trainer must endorse the student based on clear criteria set out
>> by
>> the American Board of examiners..
>> Rebecca
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
>> To: <drkatetsi at mac.com>; <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:20 PM
>> Subject: sociometry of training
>>
>>
>>> Kate Hudgins brings up another point that I want to echo.
>>>
>>> 1. She notes "...the way sociometry at work in China. It is called guan
>>> xi......getting something based on your relationship connections."
>>>
>>> 2. Notes also that her training is measured by check-lists! Their
>>> supervisors assess hands-on skills according to these lists "...people
>>> get
>>> after each time they are on a team. As there have been many pulls to
>>> pass
>>> people based on relationship that I have been able to resist by
>>> returning
>>> to the checklists."
>>> Wow! Now that I've thought of this, and the workshops I've done, some
>>> training activities, there has been a range of taking-responsibility an
>>> demonstration of competence" for which there are few built-in indicators
>>> or feedback. People just accumulate "hours," but with what quality
>>> participation? Mere attendance should not be the only criterion.
>>>
>>> It is a risky topic indeed. Warmly, Adam
>>>
>>> Grouptalk mailing list
>>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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----
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.8/1800 - Release Date: 11/19/2008
> 6:55 PM
>
>
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at grouptalkweb.org
> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:19:51 -0600
From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
Subject: Federation of Trainers
To: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>, <list at grouptalkweb.org>
Message-ID: <BC6FC027863D49ACA5F9AFC088AFB144 at desktop>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Yes, the Federation operated from around 1979 through 1987 or thereabouts. A
survey of
members indicated that it had become a little too expensive to try to have
another meeting
apart from the ASGPP conference. Whatever feelings of possible conflicts of
interest among
the ASGPP, the newly-hatched American Board of Examiners, and the Trainers
seemed to have
been melted. The meetings of the Federation of Trainers and Training
Programs in
Psychodrama (FOTATPIP) had become more like an ASGPP conference.
The group cohesion, though cordial, wasn't enough to tackle such
tasks as
--- definitions (I don't remember if that theme had come
up at that
point)
-- check list or common training curriculum or manual (I
think that is
what stimulated Evie Lotze, but that was a little later)
etc.
As institutions mature, Board Members of the ABExaminers might want
to survey and
consider such measures.
It's a good question. Input from the FEPTO (European organization)
might be
useful.
Warmly, Adam
----- Original Message -----
From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>; <list at grouptalkweb.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: sociometry of training
>I think at one time, before I was a trainer, there was an attempt to have a
> federation of trainers and one goal was to have a common curriculum. I
think
> this would be a terrific idea...but I know from students who attend our
> directing intensives, ones who come from training programs all over the
> country, that many trainers still train by directing psychodramas with
very
> little actual teaching and very little practicing directing skills. I
> imagine these different styles of training would prevent there being a
> consensus about what competencies are basic skills. But it is an awfully
> interesting idea.
> Rebecca
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
> To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:21 PM
> Subject: Re: sociometry of training
>
>
>> In the 1970s, I think the St. Elizabeth's Hospital (Washington DC)
>> Psychodrama Program created a syllabus for training---of sorts.
>> In the 1980s, Evie Lotze created a 3-volume training manual.
>> Eventually, it might be possible to create one that had the input
of
>> a number of active trainers, reflected a degree of consensus, and might
in
>> turn be used for new TEPs as an aid in their work.
>> Hm?
>> The ol' "pooling of different efforts" game?
>>
>> The reason I don't do it is that I am not active as a trainer
>> now. It should be done by folks who encounter the most common problems in
>> training! What do trainers find themselves dealing with that makes them
>> sweat a little?
>> (Anyone can handle the easy stuff. As I saw at a tailor's shop: "Our
>> difficult customers are the ones that make us earn our money. Otherwise
>> the guy down the block could do the job at half the work and half the
>> price.")
>>
>> warmly, Adam
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "HV Psychodrama" <hvpi at hvc.rr.com>
>> To: "Adam Blatner" <adam at blatner.com>; <drkatetsi at mac.com>;
>> <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: sociometry of training
>>
>>
>>> The Toronto Center has a very elaborate check list of specific skills
and
>>> experiences. Hudson Valley Psychodrama Institute has a less elaborate
>>> check
>>> list, but we do require students to show that they have attained a
>>> certain
>>> competency in basic skills and once a student has had a couple of
hundred
>>> hours we meet with them to discuss their strengths and challenges, and
>>> what
>>> they might need to do to meet criteria for endorsement. I suspect that
>>> that
>>> is true of most ongoing programs. It can't even just be about hours as
>>> the
>>> primary trainer must endorse the student based on clear criteria set out
>>> by
>>> the American Board of examiners..
>>> Rebecca
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
>>> To: <drkatetsi at mac.com>; <list at grouptalkweb.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:20 PM
>>> Subject: sociometry of training
>>>
>>>
>>>> Kate Hudgins brings up another point that I want to echo.
>>>>
>>>> 1. She notes "...the way sociometry at work in China. It is called
guan
>>>> xi......getting something based on your relationship connections."
>>>>
>>>> 2. Notes also that her training is measured by check-lists! Their
>>>> supervisors assess hands-on skills according to these lists "...people
>>>> get
>>>> after each time they are on a team. As there have been many pulls to
>>>> pass
>>>> people based on relationship that I have been able to resist by
>>>> returning
>>>> to the checklists."
>>>> Wow! Now that I've thought of this, and the workshops I've done,
some
>>>> training activities, there has been a range of taking-responsibility an
>>>> demonstration of competence" for which there are few built-in
indicators
>>>> or feedback. People just accumulate "hours," but with what quality
>>>> participation? Mere attendance should not be the only criterion.
>>>>
>>>> It is a risky topic indeed. Warmly, Adam
>>>>
>>>> Grouptalk mailing list
>>>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>>>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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----
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.8/1800 - Release Date:
11/19/2008
>> 6:55 PM
>>
>>
>> Grouptalk mailing list
>> List at grouptalkweb.org
>> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
>>
>
>
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----
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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.8/1800 - Release Date: 11/19/2008
6:55 PM
------------------------------
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