psychotherapy by telephone
thana ag
anathga at hotmail.com
Mon Aug 4 18:25:52 CDT 2008
Dear Rosa,
I have been conducting therapy over the phone for over 25years,though I don't think there was ever a mention by Moreno about it.
I do even Psychodrama a deux over the phone.
In the true spirit od spontaneity : I assume Moreno would've embraced new ways of dealing with the therapeutic process.,when distance,time constraints etc,make it impossible to meet face to face.
I usually have first few encounters in person. My preference is to meet in person.
I definitely should write a paper about it(a wink to ADAM)
Hope this is helpful.
I liked your book.
anath garber
> From: rosacukier at uol.com.br
> To: list at grouptalkweb.org
> Subject: psychotherapy by telephone
> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 20:13:41 -0300
>
> Hy Adam and coleagues
>
> I need some help around the issue of psychotherapy delivered by telephone
> or internet.
> a.. Do you know any reference of Moreno talking about delivering
> therapy by telephone?
> b.. Is there any article about psychodrama by telephone?
> c.. Is it permitted by APAS law of ettics?
> Thank you very much, it is a new subject in Brazil and I think that in
> USA and Europe it is more discussed than here.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <list-request at grouptalkweb.org>
> To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 2:00 PM
> Subject: List Digest, Vol 26, Issue 2
>
>
> > Send List mailing list submissions to
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> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Peace-building & psychodrama (SaphiraL at aol.com)
> > 2. Re: List Digest, Vol 25, Issue 31 Janet (Deborah Karner)
> > 3. Theatre of the Oppressed (Adam Blatner)
> > 4. Re: Sociometry (Effie Best)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:47:52 EDT
> > From: SaphiraL at aol.com
> > Subject: Re: Peace-building & psychodrama
> > To: Andreachf at aol.com, list at grouptalkweb.org
> > Message-ID: <be8.34bb58ce.35c4a648 at aol.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Dear Andrea,
> > This has always been my interest in professional theater projects as well
> > as
> > psychodrama and drama therapy.
> > My colleague and I created a 10 minute play called MOTHERBLOOD, an
> > encounter
> > between an Israeli Woman and a Palestinian woman, both of whom lost a
> > child
> > in the conflict. Within 10 minutes we have included both the major
> > socio-political issues (on both sides) as well as the range of emotional
> > expression
> > between the two women. It is our belief that if Jerusalem, the so-called
> > city of
> > peace, perhaps the heart chakra of the world, which has been the seat of
> > more bloodshed in the name of religion, could come to peace, then the
> > ripples
> > may be felt all over the world.
> > When the play is over, we put the audience in groups and have them discuss
> > the play and then envision the next scene toward peace. When appropriate,
> > we
> > have them improvise an enactment of that scene.
> > Using a video of the performance, I presented this at the ASGPP conference
> > in NY.
> >
> > Blessings.
> > Saphira
> >
> >
> >
> > For more information contact:
> > Omega Theater at 617-522-8300 or email: _info at omegatheater.o_
> > (mailto:info at omegatheater.org) rg
> >
> > Omega Transpersonal Drama Therapy Certificate Program
> > On the web: _http://www.omegatheater.org/_ (http://www.omegatheater.org/)
> > 41 Greenough Ave,
> > Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 (In Boston)
> >
> >
> >
> > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your
> > budget?
> > Read reviews on AOL Autos.
> > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017
> > )
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:51:32 -0400
> > From: "Deborah Karner" <deborah.karner at rcn.com>
> > Subject: Re: List Digest, Vol 25, Issue 31 Janet
> > To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> > Message-ID: <000d01c8f3ff$3bc6bf30$6401a8c0 at Deb>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=original
> >
> > Hi to those of you writing about Janet,
> > I am currently researching trauma and domestic violence and came across
> > this reference which I have not had time to read due to deadlines realted
> > to
> > the research. here is something I found that may be of interest.
> > a review and summary of Janet's work on psychological trauma:
> > B. A. van de Kolk & O. van der Hart, "Pierre Janet and the Breakdown of
> > Adaption in Psychological Trauma," American Journalof Psychiatry 146
> > (1989):
> > 1530-40
> > Hope it's helpful.
> > deborah karner
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <list-request at grouptalkweb.org>
> > To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 1:00 PM
> > Subject: List Digest, Vol 25, Issue 31
> >
> >
> >> Send List mailing list submissions to
> >> list at grouptalkweb.org
> >>
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> >> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
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> >> than "Re: Contents of List digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >> 1. Thanks: Patricia, tells more about Janet and how you use it
> >> for psychodrama (Anne)-List Digest, Vol 25, Issue 22
> >> (Anne Ancelin Schutzenberger)
> >> 2. psychodrama and clinical supervision (martinputt)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:00:07 +0200
> >> From: Anne Ancelin Schutzenberger <anne.schutzenberger at wanadoo.fr>
> >> Subject: Thanks: Patricia, tells more about Janet and how you use it
> >> for psychodrama (Anne)-List Digest, Vol 25, Issue 22
> >> To: PATRICIA DESERT <honeybwomn at msn.com>
> >> Cc: Anne Ancelin Schutzenberger <anne.schutzenberger at wanadoo.fr>,
> >> list at grouptalkweb.org, damienlabas at yahoo.fr, HoneyBWomn at aol.com,
> >> eva at leveton.com, cbaim at hotmail.com
> >> Message-ID: <CF9008BD-C949-42E4-8F5B-A95FD2D0A675 at wanadoo.fr>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>
> >> Re: Patricia,do tell more about Janet and how you use it for
> >> psychodrama (Anne)-List Digest, Vol 25, Issue 22
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ==== ==== ==== ==== ====
> >> Le 21 juil. 08 ? 04:10, PATRICIA DESERT a ?crit :
> >>
> >> Hi Anne--I have only done some reading of Janet because his writing,
> >> like his contemporaries, is dense and convoluted in many areas, not
> >> readily available, and the book was on loan to me for only a short
> >> while some years ago. I don't even remember the title. I was
> >> fascinated enough to read secondary sources that more easily helped
> >> me understand what he did. And his findings on dissociation and
> >> "hysteria" (now identified in the DSM-IV as DID, PTSD, personality
> >> disorders, etc.) and his treatments using hypnosis are remarkable
> >> and support a lot of what I have learned and do in psychodrama and in
> >> my practice as a mind/body/spirit clinician that sees the affective
> >> system as a critical structure to address in working with clients.
> >>
> >> Janet did not address the affective system directly but his work
> >> recognized sensations as a very real part of consciousness that get
> >> derailed by the dissociated process. And the affective system is
> >> what I routinely address in psychodrama work. His concept of
> >> "psychological force" is also a mainstay in my work and it directly
> >> speaks to spontaneity and creativity as Moreno conceptualized in his
> >> Canon of Creativity and throughout his writings.
> >>
> >> For example, Janet talked about the "reality connect"--using the
> >> senses and the mind to be in the moment, free from anxious thoughts,
> >> images, sensations, etc. and able to exercise sound judgment and make
> >> accurate meaning out of our experience. As Moreno taught us,
> >> experience enough anxiety and we will experience a disconnect from
> >> our creativity. I see this in some ways as Janet's "reality
> >> disconnect"--a loss of unity with body and mind.
> >>
> >> Also, Janet's concept of psychological force and psychological
> >> tension he describes as the quantity of basic psychic energy
> >> available to us and our capacity to use it. This is so basic
> >> Morenian to me--as it precurses Moreno's ideas on spontaneity and
> >> creativity. And I see this energy sabotaged over and over in clients
> >> who become overwhelmed with emotion.
> >>
> >> And because I view emotion always as a feeling--after all we cannot
> >> feel a thought right?--I immediately move into interventions that
> >> help clients reconnect in safe, calming ways with their body. One of
> >> the primary interventions I use to help clients become "reality
> >> connected" or in Morenian language, reconnected with their
> >> spontaneity, is the double and very specifically the TSM body double.
> >>
> >> Another intervention is the mirroring structure whereby the
> >> protagonist sits off stage and
> >> 1) puts into words the experience to be enacted,
> >> 2) while doing so chooses auxiliaries and describes their role,
> >> what to say, etc., and
> >> 3) watches the enactment.
> >> This is excellent for a dissociative client as I can titrate the
> >> action in order to help the client remain present.
> >> Once h/she can watch without dissociating h/she is ready to move
> >> into the scene.
> >> This intervention reflects a core capacity related to Janet's
> >> "reality connect"
> >> --the ability to experience a coherent narrative including effects of
> >> the experience
> >> while staying in the moment.
> >>
> >> Of course, psychodrama is a method that requires action that engages
> >> all parts of self--mind, body, and spirit. Janet, again in what I
> >> think was revolutionary for his time and unfortunately derailed by
> >> Freud's psychoanalytic perspective, made no distinction between the
> >> intellect, feelings, and what we actually do. He saw thought,
> >> feelings, and behavior intimately interconnected with consciousness,
> >> activity, and ideas --all that support a natural push to manifest and
> >> expand or contract depending on who we are and what we have experienced.
> >>
> >> So movement is a key intervention I use. Anxiety in sufficient force
> >> paralyze so I get the body moving in safe and supportive ways to
> >> break the paralysis. When we move physical sensations are stimulated
> >> and provide opportunities for clients to learn how to safely and
> >> knowledgeably experience their bodies. Sometimes that happens through
> >> a soft, fluffy pillow toss , other times through appropriate
> >> laughter, and many times it is to use auxiliaries to personify a
> >> client's inner reality in positive ways. Strengths building with
> >> auxiliaries and then role reversing is a wonderful intervention.
> >>
> >> As I said Janet did not specifically study the affective system, but
> >> his concept of dissociation certainly included an understanding that
> >> sensation was a key component in feeling safe and thinking and acting
> >> competently and effectively. I believe this is why his treatment
> >> sessions often included painting or listening to music or sculpting.
> >> I have used all these types of activities in my psychodrama workshops
> >> and psychodrama a deux. They consistently reduce anxiety and
> >> stimulate spontaneity and creativity.
> >>
> >> His interventions through hypnosis also give us profoundly effective
> >> ideas for helping clients heal. And while I don't use hypnosis I
> >> have applied his idea of using an altered state of consciousness in
> >> other ways to help clients access their innate spontaneity and
> >> creativity. They include creative visualization, mindful meditation
> >> structures, affirmation tapes, stream of consciousness writing, etc.
> >>
> >> In some key respects I see Janet's work as a precursor to Moreno's
> >> ideas. I just wonder if Moreno read his work and was inspired by
> >> it. They seem so sympatico in some ways.
> >>
> >> Top of the evening to you Anne.
> >> Thanks for asking. Patti
> >>
> >> Patti Desert, LCSW-C, CEMDR, CP
> >> Singular Pathways
> >> 208 East Melrose Avenue
> >> Baltimore, MD 21212
> >> Phone: 410.435.3755
> >> Fax: 410.435.0547
> >> www.singular-pathways.com
> >> "from fears and tears to confidence and joy"
> >> - - - - - - - -
> >> From: Anne Ancelin Schutzenberger <anne.schutzenberger at wanadoo.fr>
> >> To: list at grouptalkweb.org
> >> CC: Schutzenberger Anne <anne.schutzenberger at wanadoo.fr>,LABAS Damien
> >> <damienlabas at yahoo.fr>, Patti <HoneyBWomn at aol.com>,Leveton Eva
> >> <eva at leveton.com>, BAIM Clark <cbaim at hotmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: Patricia,do tell more about Janet and how you use it for
> >> psychodrama (Anne)List Digest, Vol 25, Issue 22
> >> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 01:17:30 +0200
> >> Re: Patricia, do tell more about Piere Janet - a French
> >> psychiatrist. (1859-1947) and how you use it for psychodrama (Anne)-
> >> List Digest, Vol 25, Issue 22
> >>
> >> Dear Patti
> >>
> >> Please,explain more what you take from Pierre Janet and his
> >> "perspective and
> >> theories on feelings." in your work -
> >> What is it really - nobody explain it on grouptalk, not in real details-
> >>
> >> And I am very interrested, aspecially because I am working on a new book
> >> and new research about what makes psychodrama such an unique
> >> wonderfull but complex tool, -
> >> -and what various influences we psychodramatists are under;
> >> Freud, Janet, Foulkes, Bateson, etc..- or nonverbal communication
> >> research -
> >> or theater theories ...
> >> warmly
> >> best of best
> >> anne
> >> anne ancelin schutzenberger
> >> Unjiversity Professor, PhD,TEP,group-anayse
> >> transgenerational analyst
> >> co-Founder abd actual honorzry archivist IAGP
> >> -------------------------------------------------------
> >> anne.schutzenberger at wanadoo.fr
> >> http://www.psychogenealogie.name
> >> ====== ======
> >> Le 19 juil. 08 ? 19:00, list-request at grouptalkweb.org a ?crit :
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> than "Re: Contents of List digest..."
> >> Today's Topics:
> >> 1. RE: Subtle oppression anecdote (T. Treadwell)
> >> 2. RE: Psychodrama Business (PATRICIA DESERT)
> >> 3. RE: Pierre Janet (PATRICIA DESERT)
> >> --------------------------
> >> Message: 3 --- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:23:14 -0400
> >> From: "PATRICIA DESERT" <honeybwomn at msn.com>
> >> Subject: RE: Pierre Janet
> >> To: adam at blatner.com, eddy1 at labyrinth.net.au, list at grouptalkweb.org
> >>
> >> I have read some of Janet's work and resonated with his perspective
> >> antheories on feelings. I am interested in hearing from others who
> >> may have read him and what they took away from it. Patti
> >>
> >> Patti Desert, LCSW-C, CEMDR, CP
> >> Singular Pathways
> >> 208 East Melrose Avenue
> >> Baltimore, MD 21212
> >> Phone: 410.435.3755
> >> Fax: 410.435.0547
> >> www.singular-pathways.com
> >> "from fears and tears to confidence and joy"
> >> ==
> >> From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
> >> Reply-To: Adam Blatner <adam at blatner.com>
> >> To: "Neil Hucker" <eddy1 at labyrinth.net.au>,<list at grouptalkweb.org>
> >> Subject: Pierre Janet
> >> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:30:35 -0500
> >>
> >> Dear Neil, thanks for bringing up the name of Pierre Janet. Googling him
> >> brings up 184,000 hits! He's an important and under-estimated
> >> thinker who
> >> has insights that challenged some of Freud's---perhaps explaining
> >> why his
> >> work was not fully appreciated during the hegemony of psychoanalysis---a
> >> hegemony that tended to also devalue the many insights of others,
> >> such as
> >> Adler or Jung (who were characterized by the mainstream as merely
> >> disaffected former disciples with a father complex rather than mature
> >> colleagues with independent and often valid insights), Assagioli
> >> (psychosynthesis), Reich, Adolf Meyer, Janet, and so forth.
> >> So far I haven't heard of anyone who has investigated common
> >> themes. I'm not aware of any evidence suggesting that Moreno knew
> >> much ifanything about Janet's work. How is it you have become
> >> interested? Perhaps you might help us enrich our work by noting
> >> some arenas where Janet's
> >> insights might be helpful in our own theory development and practice.
> >> (And of course I too would be interested if Anne knows of any
> >> overlap in the French psychological literature.)
> >> Warmly, Adam
> >> - - - -
> >> -- Original Message -- From: Neil Hucker
> >> To: Anne Ancelin Schutzenberger ; list at grouptalkweb.org
> >> Cc: Schutzenberger Anne ; Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:39 AM
> >> Subject::reaction to Anath & Anna Schaum -subtle opression /
> >> ListDigest, Vol 25, Issue 18
> >>
> >> Dear Anne, this is Neil Hucker in Melbourne Australia. I am a
> >> psychiatrist psychodramatist and I briefly met you in Melbourne when you
> >> were at the PIM conference.
> >> I would like to know whether you have any knowledge about Piere
> >> Janet a
> >> French psychiatrist. (1859-1947) In particulat whether there has
> >> been any
> >> integration of Janet's theory and psychodrama in France.
> >> regards
> >> Neil
> >> ___
> >> ************************************
> >> - Some news from Anne Ancelin Schutzenberger (Paris and Argentiere)
> >> Good long French summer holidays in French Alps
> >> Argentiere-Chamonix-Mont-Blanc (Hte Savoie) France-
> >> -------------- next part --------------
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> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 2
> >> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:46:25 +1200
> >> From: "martinputt" <martinputt at orcon.net.nz>
> >> Subject: psychodrama and clinical supervision
> >> To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> >> Message-ID: <E1KNnhM-0000g3-Im at mx7.orcon.net.nz>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>
> >> Dear All
> >>
> >> Hi to all from New Zealand.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I am a psychodramatist-in-training presently doing some post graduate
> >> study
> >> in Clinical Supervision (within a university psychotherapy department in
> >> Auckland, New Zealand)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I am interested in any professional writing (published or unpublished!)
> >> about the use of psychodrama and it's foundations in clinical supervision
> >> practice- particularly in the health/human services and about either
> >> individual or group supervision or supervision/consultation of
> >> teams/agencies/organisations.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I am aware only of Mike Consedine's (NZ) ANZPA thesis Utilization of Role
> >> Theory in Clinical Supervision (1998) and Anthony William's Visual and
> >> Active Supervision- Roles Focus Techniques (1995) W.W. Norton.both
> >> excellent
> >> resources.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Any pointers gratefully received! (I only speak English so it would need
> >> to
> >> be in English or translated into English.)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Warmly,
> >>
> >> Martin Putt
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Martin Putt
> >>
> >> (ANZPA, ANZATSA)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Phone 021 619 680
> >>
> >> _____
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------- next part --------------
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> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Grouptalk mailing list
> >> List at grouptalkweb.org
> >> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> End of List Digest, Vol 25, Issue 31
> >> ************************************
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:44:02 -0500
> > From: "Adam Blatner" <ablatner at verizon.net>
> > Subject: Theatre of the Oppressed
> > To: <list at grouptalkweb.org>
> > Message-ID: <013001c8f406$91df49d0$2e01a8c0 at desktop>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Are there any of you who are interested in Boal's Theatre of the Oppressed
> > and how it might be refined? I have someone more associated with the drama
> > therapy network, but who recognizes that this approaches also overlaps
> > with sociodrama.
> > Warmly,
> > Adam Blatner, M.D.
> > website: www.blatner.com/adam/
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > URL:
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 11:04:29 +0930
> > From: Effie Best <effieb at merlin.net.au>
> > Subject: Re: Sociometry
> > To: list at grouptalkweb.org
> > Cc: Laure Gargano <lgargano at ptd.net>
> > Message-ID: <C583826C-1931-4502-8F15-0C04D99FBCE0 at merlin.net.au>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
> >
> > Laure,
> > You may be interested in the way Diana Jones in New Zealand uses
> > sociometry in her work with organisations. Her website is at
> > http://www.sociometry.co.nz/
> >
> > On 02/08/2008, at 2:08 AM, Adam Blatner wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Laure, (re "Laure Gargano" <lgargano at ptd.net> ) you asked,
> >> on July 31, 2008 : I
> >> am most curious how I can apply these methods to team build in a
> >> clinical work
> >> environment? I am hoping to gain a better understanding of the
> >> existing relationships -
> >> and attempt to correlate that into understanding the roles each of
> >> the middle managers
> >> play in our organizational structure.. .. Why would I want to
> >> that??? Well - I want to
> >> work toward creating an environment that accesses and promotes
> >> individual creativity and
> >> learn how to better access individual talents/creativity to benefit
> >> each team. (there are
> >> seven clinical teams, and then medical/physical plant has three
> >> teams) I am equally
> >> curious about utilizing role theory as a construct to engage in
> >> clinical supervision with
> >> the therapists and team supervisors. So any
> >>> information any of you have to share - or articles to review I
> >>> would greatly appreciate
> >>> it!
> >>
> >> Adam: 1. First, curious is not a sufficient motive, because it
> >> edges into wanting to
> >> manipulate, or at least it may well be perceived as being that by
> >> your work-colleagues!
> >> Sociometry involves everyone involved pooling their subjective and
> >> objective observations
> >> and deciding together what to do about it!
> >> 2. What have you read about sociometry? Have you read my paper
> >> on tele on my
> >> website? Other papers on sociometry? That's a warm-up. Also to get
> >> Ann's book available
> >> from the Toronto collective (last I heard).
> >>
> >> 3. Your interests, though, bring up a number of points to make:
> >> a. The roles a middle manager may play---in terms of
> >> work or task
> >> description--- may not correlate well with the group roles that are
> >> played, and these
> >> psycho-social (not task) roles can operate in such a way as to
> >> strengthen or weaken the
> >> official roles.
> >> How a given manager might see her role might differ from how
> >> others perceive her!
> >> It's really quite complex, sort of the
> >> psychoanalysis of the
> >> small-medium-sized group. All the expectations, conscious and
> >> unconscious, all the
> >> limitations of consciousness and efforts at consciousness-raising,
> >> and so forth, all
> >> relate to each other.
> >>
> >> b. Warming up the group to being interested in exploring
> >> this arena takes a
> >> lot of work and often is not possible. Who wants to examine such
> >> things? It's only likely
> >> to hurt your feelings, or so you might well think. What would make
> >> you want to know rather
> >> than prefer not to know? How confident are you that the process or
> >> leader is likely to be
> >> able to get past all sorts of asymmetric psychological and social
> >> dynamics so that there's
> >> enough of a good chance for a positive result and a high probability
> >> that complications
> >> won't be deeply emotionally costly. I'm pretty wary---I don't know
> >> anyone who I would
> >> trust to be able to intervene with, say, my community, in order to
> >> be able tp deal the the
> >> varieties of limited and low consciousness of people on various
> >> committees, etc.
> >>
> >> In summary, I see sociometry as being a field that is being
> >> practiced in smaller and
> >> larger ways here and there, not much, and a field in need of a great
> >> deal of refinement,
> >> writing articles and papers, and so forth.
> >> Don't get me wrong. While I have reservations about how mature
> >> it is, I think the
> >> general questions and arena of exploration involved in sociometry
> >> are supremely relevant
> >> to the advance of the psycho-social sciences and general
> >> contemporary understanding. I
> >> hope this is helpful. Warmly, Adam
> >>
> >>
> >> Grouptalk mailing list
> >> List at grouptalkweb.org
> >> http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
> >
> > Effie Best
> > 7/101 Sturt St
> > Adelaide SA 5000
> > effieb at merlin.net.au
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Grouptalk mailing list
> > List at grouptalkweb.org
> > http://grouptalkweb.org/mailman/listinfo/list_grouptalkweb.org
> >
> >
> >
> > End of List Digest, Vol 26, Issue 2
> > ***********************************
>
>
> Grouptalk mailing list
> List at grouptalkweb.org
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